Christmas Magic & the Woman Who Held It All Together

Episode 6: A Thousand Little Things

A Conversational Commentary on Letting Go, Living With Fear, and Telling Shirley’s Story

Some podcast episodes feel like an investigation. Others feel like a confession.

This one feels like sitting at a kitchen table long after dinner, when the coffee’s gone cold and someone finally says the thing everyone’s been holding in.

This episode of Shirley, You Can’t Be Serious isn’t just about Shirley’s past, it’s about what happens after the worst things. About how people survive, adapt, and sometimes quietly perform miracles for the kids watching them.

It’s about Christmas magic made from cereal boxes. About fear that seeps into your nervous system without asking permission. And about how telling the truth, years later, can loosen the grip of stories that never fully ended.

The Shirley We All Knew (And the Ones We Didn’t)

Everyone in Shirley’s life knew a different version of her.

To her kids, she was the mom who somehow made Christmas feel enormous - even when there was no money. Inflatable pool toys became “big presents.” Empty boxes turned into entire cities. A hand-painted bike became the coolest thing on the block.

To coworkers, she was competent, warm, dependable, the kind of woman people trusted instinctively.

To her grandchildren, she was the grandma who baked, read stories, played games, and refused to lose at cards.

And to the people who knew her earlier, before healing, before safety, before distance, she was someone surviving things she wasn’t ready to explain yet.

That’s one of the hardest truths this podcast keeps returning to: people change. And sometimes the version you loved most is not the version that lived through the worst chapter.

Christmas Magic as Survival Skill

Listening to the stories about Shirley as a young mother, one thing becomes painfully clear: she understood something fundamental.

Kids don’t need perfection. They need wonder.

They need to believe the world is bigger than their circumstances.

So she built cities out of cereal boxes. She painted bikes emerald green with silver glitter. She made poverty invisible, not by denying it, but by transforming it.

That’s not denial. That’s creativity. That’s protection.

And many of us don’t realize until adulthood just how much work that kind of magic actually takes.

The Shadow of Mount Lemmon

This episode also sits under a much darker cloud: the Mount Lemmon attacks and the ripple effects that followed.

What’s striking isn’t just the violence itself, it’s the lack of closure that so many people carried for decades.

Patty Wells didn’t know if the women she helped survived. Jamie carried unanswered questions from childhood into adulthood. Shirley carried fear long after the prison sentence was handed down. Amanda absorbed that fear secondhand and lived with it quietly for 20 years.

Trauma doesn’t always look like flashbacks. Sometimes it looks like never hiking alone. Sometimes it looks like hyper-awareness. Sometimes it looks like fear without a clear origin story.

And sometimes it looks like blocking things out because your life is finally good and you don’t want to go back there.

Why This Isn’t Just a True Crime Story

Yes, there is a cold case. Yes, there are court transcripts and police reports. Yes, there are names that still raise unanswered questions.

But this episode makes something very clear: this podcast is not about glorifying violence or chasing villains.

It’s about:

• how trauma moves through families

• how silence can feel safer than truth

• how forgiveness doesn’t mean approval

• how redemption is rarely neat

It’s about the gray space - the one most of us actually live in.

Fear, Forgiveness, and the Phone Call That Changed Everything

One of the most powerful moments in this episode is not dramatic music or revelation, it’s a phone call.

After decades of fear, Amanda picks up the phone and calls the man she’s been afraid of her entire life.

Not to accuse. Not to absolve. Just to talk.

And that moment matters, not because it solves anything, but because it returns agency to someone who had been carrying inherited fear for years.

That’s a recurring theme here: fear passed down unintentionally, and the conscious decision to stop letting it dictate the rest of your life.

Why Shirley’s Story Took This Long

Shirley tried to write her memoir once. She stopped because it felt “too dark.”

That alone says everything.

People don’t tell their stories when they’re surviving. They tell them when they’re ready. When the nervous system settles. When distance allows clarity.

This podcast exists because Shirley reached that point and because the people who loved her were willing to carry the story forward when she no longer could.

The Quiet Takeaway

There’s no single lesson wrapped neatly at the end of this episode.

Instead, there’s a series of gentle truths:

• Trauma changes the body, not just the mind

• Avoidance can look like strength for a long time

• Understanding doesn’t erase harm but it can soften its edges

• Saying “I love you” matters more than we think

And maybe most importantly:

You never fully know the chapters someone lived before you met them.

Why This Story Matters Now

This episode isn’t about the past staying buried. It’s about the past finally being placed somewhere it belongs.

Shirley’s story doesn’t ask for judgment. It asks for understanding.

And maybe that’s the real Christmas magic after all.

🎙️ Listen to this episode of Shirley, You Can’t Be Serious for the voices behind the story - the pauses, the laughter, the fear, and the moments where forgiveness doesn’t arrive all at once, but shows up anyway.

Some stories don’t end cleanly. But telling them can still set people free.

Full Episode Transcript:

Dead Serious Media.

I've blocked a lot of that outta my head because it wasn't a good time in my life. Mm-hmm. Once all this happened, you know, I try to let that go and go on with my life. And right now my life is awesome and so I'm happy. And, uh, so this is where my, this is where I live now, and I just don't go back there.

 And now the story of Christmas Magic Blind Dates, and my stepmother Shirley, letting go of it all. I'm Amanda Fallon, and this is The Shirley. You can't be serious podcast.

 And as I said, this was kinda the, dark, hard side of the story. Mm-hmm. But, um, there's a thousand little things that she did not just right, but really well, or even exemplary, um,, in shining through for us, , kids. And like I said, we might not always feel it in the moment because it's overshadowed by.

Other griefs burdens or whatnot, but given a moment for that to pass and people reminding you, you know, like I said, I heard it from him all the time, your mom's worried about you, you should call, you know, call your mom.

 They're the fastest metal cars you've ever seen. Mattel's new Hot Wheels. Collect them by themselves or get 'em in wild new action sets like the drag race action set. Get Mattel's new Hot Wheels, the fastest metal cars you've. 

My mom, , on the good side, like I said, as I was growing up, I remember , one of the things, um,, for Christmas, , all my friends, we were in the Hot Wheels, you know, five year olds and everybody got those suitcases that open up into little cities.

Well, you know, I didn't know that we couldn't afford, , stuff like that. I, I didn't think my mom had a very talented way of making Christmas look big, you know? And, um, and if you look back at the photographs and stuff, and you see that the, the tricks, well, she'd go out and buy a bunch of, uh, pool inflatable animals, right?

So there's a big blowup dolphin over here. There's another big blowup toy here, you know, and so the tree is surrounded by, all these big, big gifts and stuff. But, you know, um. There aren't really any gifts under that tree as far as what normal people would think of. And, but what she had done for me, that one year, and I was it prided, , she had saved all the, uh, cracker cereal boxes and stuff like that, and she had, uh, papered them over, turned them all in the houses and everything, and had a big bed sheet that she drew out, a city roads and everything, you know.

And, uh, so my friends would come over and , as little kids, they just, you know, they'd pull out their matchbox and we'd hook 'em up. So it was all the big sheet, but I had the coolest one. It was the biggest and the coolest and with all these buildings and everything that she had made. So I had no idea that we were poor at all.

And like the bicycle that she gave me, she had painted it emerald green and that glitter, silver glitter paint. She had pinstripe the thing with it and everything. So, you know, I had a cool bike and, you know, so she knew how to make it look like I, like I said, I, I had no idea we were poor when I was little.

 Shirley Carroll was recently selected as the new coordinator. We volunteered together. Outstanding achievement, the feeling that she, she brought to her eyes the first place for shorthand and overall Secretary excellence, employee of Money Homemaker of the Year award.

Her personality, your homecoming queen. Secretary Shirley was just a real blessing to our company. She's a, she was always, and we felt very honored to have her there. There's a thousand little things that she did not just right, but really well. We had a blessed relationship. We really did. So, so I just thank God I had 23 years with her.

 We all grew up with different versions of Shirley. After my own mother passed away, Shirley's bond with me and then my children was enhanced. She fully embraced and stepped into the perfect role of grandma, the grandma that bakes and reads and plays.

Through that our bond grew deeper. The flaws that I found in Shirley became part of our bond and were more her charm, her horrible cooking. Her unwillingness to lose a card game and her innate ability to not let things go like expired food.

I was 15 years old when my dad married Shirley. Eddie and Kane were in their thirties with lives of their own. Eddie and I are related, not so much by nature, but by nurture. We were brought together through Shirley. On one occasion, Shirley expressed her desire to write her memoir and started to, but ended up shelving it because she felt it was too dark.

So she never completed, and I vowed to continue it for her because she couldn't tell the story herself. I have had everyone close to her help in doing it.

The idea that it would bring closure to so many had never crossed my mind when I started. In the process, I've gotten to know her so much more. Hearing about the Shirley that they knew.

 Okay, so I am recording. Oh, okay. Are you okay with that? I'm okay. I'm okay.

/ 

I started recording Shirley in 2019, not knowing. That this was gonna be a podcast. I was recording Shirley to help her write her memoir. Yeah. Like in a book form.

So start recording her and a year later I listened to that podcast, s Town Uhhuh.

And I was like, oh my gosh, this actually would make a great podcast. But I knew nothing about podcasts. I had no idea how I was, how I was gonna do it. And literally within a few months I met my cousin's new wife, Ottavia McHenry. And she's a true crime podcaster. And she was super interested in the story and at first she was like, oh, I'd love to be your, your mentor.

And I'm like, great, 'cause I need one. 'cause I have no idea what I'm doing. And then it evolved, you know, a couple months later she's like, actually, you know, I'd love to team up with you. This is a great story. And to her, the great story was the cold case, Joan Marie Archer. 'cause she's an investigative journalist.

Mm-hmm. So she's like, let's solve it.

So she's done, at this point in time, she had done missing Alyssa so now she's married to my cousin and she's working on one. And she even told me, she's like, I've gotta finish up this, you know, I'm wrapping up a podcast and then I wanna work with you.

I was like, great.

So we team up and we worked together for two years. It was 2021 , through 2023. And in those two years we realized, these could be two different stories.

Avi's Focus shifted to the cold case because that's what she specializes in

and in the meantime, I took all the elements of the Shirley story

you're hearing now, my stepmother's story and it's now the Shirley Can't Be Series podcast, and Autavia is focusing on Joan Marie Archer. And super excited to, you know, hear what she does with it and looking forward to it when it comes out.

 Yes, the road to Mount Lemon is still closed. In fact, you can see, uh, Pima County Sheriff's deputies talking with a car, a couple of cars right there, and you can see out in the distance that road close sign. Now coming up at six o'clock, you will hear from a family who was up on the mountain in a.

 Now let's go back to Mount Lemon, the events that led to a gruesome scene witnessed by a 10-year-old boy. In our phone call with Jamie, he expressed a need for answers.

I was so young. I was more, I don't even think I was in shock over the situation.

I was more in shock seeing all the blood. Um, but to me it was an, you know, an emergency and I don't know, I, I don't know that I was really focusing on what was going on other than just being an amazement that all of this is really happening and, you know, we were part of it.

You know, it was one, it was an event in life. You know, it was one of those things that was, uh. Like, you know, my age obviously, and like I said, I, I didn't even understand the whole sequence of events exactly or what was going on at the ranger station.

So as I got older and I became more interested in, you know, my daughter's, you know, going to get her master's to be a forensic scientist, so, you know, we, we got into, you know, true crime and stuff like that and, and then I got into risk management and I don't that it correlates because I became a professional skip tracer.

Which gave me the ability to really find anybody I wanted to with the tools that I had. And, you know, I just, it, he was always in the back of my mind, like, what happened? And one day I was just like, you know what, I'm gonna look this guy up and, and see what's going on. And I saw that he was out of prison and, uh, located his phone number and just, just wanted to, you know, like, I don't know.

I wanted to ask him. Just let him know that it still affected me. I'm not a victim. I told him I'm not a victim by any means, but you know, that was a very, very impressionable thing in my life and always has been. And it's, and it's bothered me, like just the whole situation. And I just wanted to know why, you know, why he did it.

And you know. He blamed it on his wife at the time, he was just mad at women in general. So he he didn't have the, the guts to hurt her, allegedly.

So he went and found those women. And that's basically in a nutshell how he explained it. And, you know, I told him that's a cowardly thing. I said, it's weak. And he said it was. And even though the craziest part, even even with the little sporadic details I remember about our conversation, the weirdest thing about it is at the end he asked me if I could locate their information and give it to him.

Like I, I found him so he could say he was sorry. At the end of our conversation. That was, the biggest thing that I took away from our conversation. But, you know, it was, I thought it was very strange that he asked if I could provide them, uh, him with their information. I mean, he sounded ja, he sounded more like an old man at that time. Um, and, and he didn't one time come across as like pompous or arrogant or, uh, like anybody deserved anything. He was very apologetic either way.

You know, I, it was a simple conversation. It was maybe, you know, I walked outta my office. I was actually at work and I, it was probably 10 minutes. And, uh, never felt the need to reach out to him again. But it was, it was pretty much what I ex expected, , he just sounded like a very logical old man, you know?

Did not sound like a psychopath. Didn't sound like anything. But, but again, just asking me for that stuff. I think logical people wouldn't do that.

How about that?

I remember that. So, yeah. Yeah. So I did listen to you. How about, I mean, that was creepy

as hell. I couldn't believe it. I was like, this guy is really nuts.

Okay, well you're gonna like absolutely like freak out right now because I flew out to Arizona in February and had lunch with the guy.

Shut the fuck up. I just got goosebumps. Oh my God.

So honestly, oh, I have goosebumps. Yeah. Oh yeah. How

did that go?

 Well, we're gonna leave Jamie hanging for a little bit. We do answer that question, but first on the topic of being left hanging, Patty Wells never knew what happened to anyone after that day on Mount Lemon. She's had no closure for 40 years. 

 So I never knew, I never even knew, uh, you know, to make sure , that they were okay. And, um, well not okay, but that they, you know, uh, survived. You know, she survived. So you've lived all these years not knowing if she survived or not? No, no. I did not know.

I, I, I, I did not know I, I, after that, uh, 'cause I've had a lot of trauma in my life. I just started trauma therapy and whatever. But, but I just was, um, it was just like, why?

Why, why? Yeah.

So not knowing, sorry, this is just shocking to me.

So never knowing what happened to Pauline and Sharon that day and you ended up moving to lower Michigan and Grand Traverse County. Yeah. Did you ever, did you ever think about that day or did you just kind of block it out and go on with your life?

It's so weird. I, I kind of blocked it out, but it's so weird. About three weeks ago I was thinking about it and I was. Thinking about, I don't know what brought it up and I hadn't thought about it in a while

and, uh, yeah, I've been really struggling. I'm sorry to hear that about three weeks ago. It was probably me being like, I really need to find Patty Wells.

So talk more a little bit about Sharon.

So does she, do you, do you live close? So Sharon, um, she was the one that ran into you and you helped, right? You were her guardian angel that day. Um, Sharon moved to Oregon with her son shortly after this. Um, and she and you said he was 16 at the time? He was 16 at the time.

His name is Jimmy. Oh, poor guide. Yeah. He said he got home from high school that day and thought it was weird that his mom wasn't home and he turned on the news and, and the whole story was , on the news. He told me he had a gut feeling that it was his mom.

Oh my God. So, um, oh, poor thing. Yeah. Yeah. So they moved to Oregon for a while and then Sharon actually, she's the one that passed away from cancer in 2000.

Right. Cancer.

Yeah, and I never, I never got a chance to meet Sharon or talk with her. Um, and then it's, Pauline still lives in Tucson. And she was 27 that day. So she was close to your age? Yeah. She wasn't much old. She did, didn't seem that old. I, I mean, um, I remember that. And so your, so the way you are connected is, Shirley. So Shirley was married to Steven Skaggs. That was the guy you saw at the time? Yeah, at the time, yep. At the time. So I knew that there was two women, but I never knew their names or what happened to 'em that day. It wasn't until I received all of the court transcripts and police reports.

That's how I found you, um, was that I learned the full story. Wow. And the other family that found Pauline, there was actually a 10-year-old boy in the car and I interviewed him and, and he remembers that day pretty well.

Um, oh, the other family? Yeah, there was another family up there that was picnicking that Pauline ran into and asked for help. And so they did the same thing you guys did? They drove her to the Palisades Ranger Station. Yeah. Did you, did you find, um, a Fran or Jan? No. In fact I was hoping you knew where they were.

No, I have no idea. You three are hard to find, so, but I'm gonna keep looking for 'em if I find them. I will definitely put you guys in touch. Oh, please share my number with them. I will.

I'm just so glad they survived and he was caught

and I'm sorry that you had to live with the trauma oh my goodness. You are step mom. Oh, I just can't even imagine. I just, and the children. Oh, I just can't even imagine.

Um, so my stepmom, this is gonna probably shock you, but she stayed married to him for seven years and she went to visit him every Sunday in prison up at the Florence Prison. And she said that he was going to church and he found God and he became a religious man.

Oh, poor thing Oh my god. And then she said he was up for parole and she was really scared. So that's when she divorced him. So she actually, she heard Sharon's testimony, but not Pauline's. 'cause the lawyer kept her out of the room because my stepmom was actually a key character witness. So she also testified that day on his behalf. Wow. But she was shocked. She couldn't believe he did this, that, that's the crazy thing is Oh, she couldn't, yeah, he hadn't.

You believe someone you love and you sleep with and you and you having your house would do such a thing. Yep. Yeah. Oh, those children, the children had to do that. They had to keep doing it. Oh. Do you remember hearing, um, does this name sound familiar to you? Joan Marie Archer? No. She was a 25-year-old, uh, bicyclist that lived in Tucson and in April that year she disappeared and Oh, no, the day of the Mount Lemmon crime, her body was found.

No. Did they ever, they didn't solve the case? No. It's still a cold case. But I'm, we're gonna talk about her too in this story, and I'm hoping that it, you know, just brings awareness and I mean, you never know what will come of this.

Oh, I had no idea. I'm sorry. Sorry. Where was she hurt?

So where, where, where was she found? ? She was found a mile outside of San Javier mission over by Black Mountain. I don't know if you're familiar with that, but she super close to San Javier mission.

I was just over there today. How weird. She used to ride her bike there and light a candle. She was Catholic, so so, so that poor woman's family. Oh God. Oh wow. Oh wow. How did you have to live through this? When did you start? So I guess I really never had to live through anything that, that you or Sharon or Pauline lived through that day at all. But my stepmom married my dad in 2001, so I was 15 years old.

And so you were I was told about the story, right. And I was told, you know, who told that? Who told that to you? Um, my dad told me and then my, my stepmother's daughter told me, and then eventually my stepmom talked about it. So we just, we, I kind of always knew what happened that day without really knowing.

And, and I knew he was in prison and I knew she was scared that if he ever got out, he might come and hurt her. So that kind of, that fear kind of came into me. And Of course, of course, of course. Yeah. So, oh gosh. Yeah. And it's affected my life in weird, weird ways. Like I'll never hike alone. I, I won't do a lot of stuff alone.

Um, it's changed my behavior, but I never let it just like, I won't let bad people change me. You know, I won't let people take my trust away because I, I, I,

I know there's more good people out there than bad people, but I won't let people take away. Um, I won't let people take away from me. I won't let those bad people, but I will be aware and I won't put myself into situations and listen to your gut. If there's anything that you take away from this in a personal level, don't ever discount.

Your gut feeling, you know that that limbic system that you have, don't discount it. Take heed with it. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. And I, in a, a way, I am kind of facing my fears by doing this, by telling my stepmom's story.

So. If she hadn't been as brave and bold we wouldn't be talking.

Well, sweetheart, how old are you now, honey? I'm 40. I. I was, have you ever to, have you ever gone to, um, trauma counseling

one thing as a 63-year-old who's been through a lot of different things and I so admire, um, you know, you as a young person, um, that I wish I hadn't waited.

But I highly recommend it, especially if you have children. Do you have children, Amanda? I do. I have two children. They're actually big children now.

Wow. Wow. Congratulations. That's beautiful. Thanks. But, um, totally considerate, totally considerate. Especially having to go through this. This is not just nothing, please consider it and, and don't let things go because it, it, it changes your central nervous system.

Yeah, maybe, maybe you're the, the push I need right now. Yeah. Or, or even just, just really addressing it and, and with the anxiety and stuff with this, you know, somatic training and a lot of different, there's been so much breakthroughs on neuroscience and, um, a lot of different things, but I wish I had , been able to do it earlier.

You have to take care of yourself and obviously you've done so well and whatnot, but this, uh, don't discount that, I guess is what I'm saying.

Don't discount the, the, the toll that it can take. Yeah, I appreciate that. And hope this memoir is gonna be, uh, obviously I, I'm sure cathartic in so many ways and also, um, rewarding,

oh my goodness.

I know this project's been, it's been good. Uh, when you say we, who is included in the we?

So the, we is me and my boyfriend. And my boyfriend is the editor, producer, art director. So I'm telling the story and he's putting it together. He's doing all the tech stuff. That's wonderful that you have that support. Yes. Yeah. It would not be happening without him.

I'm at that stage of the creative process. I'm like, it just has to go, whether it's good or bad, it just has to get out there. Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and, but I interview a lot with Shirley, my stepbrother Eddie, who's, uh, in his fifties. He's a little bit older than me. He tells a lot of, he has a lot of good life advice and there's this all underlaying theme to the whole podcast, which is kind of focuses on redemption and forgiveness. Um, and just not, life's not black and white. Right? Yeah. Because a lot of people can judge Shirley and be like, how can you stay married to somebody for seven years like that?

And we're just kind of telling her full story so that you can get a better understanding of, of why we do some of the things we do. And it's not so much, you know, it, the world just isn't good and bad there. There's a huge gray area. You know, that's the thing is that all of these, these, these horrific, twisted sick people, they all have, partners.

They're lying at these lives and, and the military, you tell me, I'm sorry, but I'm so sick of it, you know damn well the military, and I'm sorry his buddies knew what a sick fuck he was. I'm sorry to be so frank, but No, I appreciate it. And no, there's been some stuff that I've uncovered in my research where I'm like, did the military cover that up?

But I will definitely, yeah, you'll have to listen to the story. We, we talk about it all.

Um, she was ready to tell her story. And I think that that happens a lot with people as they age. Oh yeah. You know, you, you're ready like 10 years ago, 15, 20 years ago, she was not ready. Oh, no. No. Yeah. And she, and she tried, she tried to write her own, and she was an amazing writer. She, she would've done an amazing biography, um, but she just wasn't, she wasn't ready to tell her story.

She wasn't ready for the world to hear it. She, she shared a lot with me, um, and she had a very, she had a hard life and she was, so, I think what intrigues me so much about her was she just saw the positive in everything. Like she went through some really dark times and really traumatic, like, shocking, not just dark, but like shocking, like finding out that your husband is going to jail for 30 years with no warning and never seeing that side to him.

Um, oh, so she, she made even through all of that, like I've interviewed her old employers and some past friends, like they all describe her as lighthearted, calm, always finding the positive in everything, even joking about the situation.

You know, like it's, it's sad. Sometimes you, you see these, um, she was in, I guess the best way to explain it was she was always in survival mode. Yeah, me too. Yeah, me too. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard.

Well part it, it's very nice to meet you.

I I hope that, um, I'm sorry that it was such an arduous task to find me, but I'm kind of, I'm just so glad I found you. Actually, it was my boyfriend that, that found You see, I've got a loving that. Yeah. Yeah. So if you are worried I it's gonna take me It's, you're hard to find. So, which that's probably a good thing, right?

Yeah. Well, I'm two weeks, I've gotta get out of this place

keep an address here at my friend's place and come back to vote and get outta here. At least it sounds like the life I wish. I honestly wish you the best. Thank you so much, and yourself and all of your family and all of the people that were affected, yeah. Thanks Patty.

Uh, yeah,, sweetie, I absolutely wish you the best. And do please, please take to heart that, um, you, you, you must help heal yourself too.

Because that can like completely, the anxiety is, is is uh, a physiological, um, issue. It's not just, you know, this or that or whatever. It literally has changed your physiological being and don't let it go into, do whatever you can, but, but it takes some, some intervention to, um, to try to change that, that path.

Don't let it go till you're 60. Okay, well, promise. Bless you. Bless you sweetheart. I wish you and Josh, Amanda, the absolute best and all of the positive, positive stuff that is going to come out of your diligence and the absolute, I think, relief that your stepmom will have.

Yeah. Thank you. Alright, take care sweetheart. Okay, thanks Patty. Have a good evening. You too. Bye.

Let's talk a little bit more about how Shirley came into my life. This is my dad, Steve? Yes. I think Shirley had a thing for guys named Steve.

But this podcast kind of made me think of Shirley in, in terms that I'd never knew about her, that she never really, uh, explained to me.

And, uh. Doesn't make me think any less of her. She just changed, that's what it was, she became a better person. And, uh, I got, I got to reap the benefits of it. And, you know, I didn't steal cars. I didn't go to jail.

I wasn't in prison.

 Hi, you've reached Steve. I can't come to the phone right now, but leave me a message. Hi Steve. Don't forget we're meeting at the King Fisher tomorrow night. We have someone for you to meet. Don't be late.

 My name is Steve Cargill, and I was married to Shirley for 23 years.

I met her on a blind date set up by a mutual friend of ours, and, uh, she told me that she

wasn't interested in anyone with two teenage girls. So, uh, we met up at a, a King Fisher restaurant in Tucson, Arizona, and I was the last one to show up and they rearranged all the seating.

So I'd be right across from Shirley.

Did you know it was a blind date?

Yeah, I did know.

Did Shirley know it was a blind date?

She knew, that's why she said she wasn't interested.

. It was 2000.

2000. Yeah. So I would've been 15 and then Ash would've been 12.

12.

We hit it off really good at the dinner and uh,

yes, I was

dating someone else at the time. Yeah,

But I knew right off the, right off the bat that she was the one I was gonna marry. So we, we really hit it off really good.

All what they told me about Shirley was that she was big breasted as if that was gonna make me happy with her. Wait, what?

I'm

just telling the truth.

I have never heard that part to the story.

No. What, what made me fall in love with her, or at least like her, was our conversation. Then she had beautiful eyes that smiled and her big smile was really, uh, really attractive.

So that's what made me attracted to her.

So you go on the blind date, you like her, and then I'm assuming you asked her out again and you guys had like an official first date.

Uh, it was months later, uh, she wanted me, she wanted me to go to a party that her sister and her family came in from Ohio. And you were there.

And that was like, that

was the first date. That

was the first date , after the meeting at the Kingfisher restaurant. Then our first date after that was just like the next weekend.

 The Catalina Highway, also known as the Mount Lemon Scenic Byway, or General Hitchcock Highway, is a 27 mile paved road leading from Tucson to the summit of Mount Lemon in Arizona. The highway is famous for dramatic elevation changes, creating a journey from the hot Sonoran Desert. To cool pine forests with diverse ecosystems.

It is a popular destination for scenic drives, hiking and exploring the Coronado National Forest with a staggering elevation gain of over 6,000 feet with significant changes in temperature and a variety of unique ecosystems. The drive showcases a biological transition from the desert floor to a high elevation forest with scenic, overlooks, picnic areas and campgrounds.

Numerous pullout areas offer stunning views of the landscape, canyons, and rock formation. The road to is a setting for Steve and Shirley's first date.

 So I had a T-Bird that was in the shop and I borrowed my mom's Cadillac.

And, uh, everything was fine. I'm not a mechanic, but, uh, the car was, uh, not, not working right. And, uh, it had, it had a reader on there saying what was wrong with the car and everything. I hit, pushed the button and said everything's fine. And the smoking, the smoke was coming out, so we were going up Mount Lemmon and we didn't make it to the top.

We, 'cause it was too smoking. And, uh, so we pulled over, we took a little hike and, uh, I, I helped her down the, the, uh, the cliff or a little, it was about three feet. And I was holding her hand and then I was holding the, the limb back. And somehow the limb got loose from my hand and smacked her right in the face.

And, uh, she was impressed because I, uh, I didn't get upset or anything like that. Uh, so we had a nice time up there. We let the car cool down for about an hour and then we just kind of coasted down the Mount Lemmon Highway and we had to push it into the gas station 'cause it was smoking a lot by then. So I called my friend up and he came and we had a, a dinner.

The three of us had a dinner that night, so that was our first date. And, uh, it just progressed. We dated her for a whole year. Just, it was really good.

Okay. So back up. You said Shirley was impressed that you didn't get mad at the car overheating or smacking her in the face with the brand or anything over

the car.

Oh, okay. Just

her previous husband would blame her for everything. And, uh,

wh which one?

Ed? Yeah. And, uh, so I didn't blame her over anything,

we never fought. I told her about five times that I don't want to talk to you right now. And, uh, that was it. And we, five minutes we go by and we back, we were back as friends half hour later or hour later.

Never more than eight hours. So, you know, we were best friends.

She was so easy to be with. She was a amazing person.

Uh, and she never said that to me. She said, let's, I'll put out a, a yellow rose if we need to talk serious. And the yellow rose never came out.

So she, she is a really good person.

. She liked, uh, country music and I didn't like country music, all that twangy stuff.

Family was very important to both of us. Uh, God was very important to both of us.

We were at the same, same stage, spiritually, same place. Uh. And, uh, most of our trips was all designed our around family.

You know, we all grow up with handicaps or, you know, dysfunctional things, Uhhuh, and maybe she wast any more than any other person, but, uh.

She was amazing.

Yeah. We just, uh, believed the same things as of, of God. We were at the same stage in our lives.

Uh, there wasn't a, I believe this and you believe that, and there's diff no differences.

Oh, that God created us all. He sent Jesus down to earth to forgive us of our sins, die rose again. And so we have a relationship with Jesus.

She went to a, a charismatic church, actually like Assembly of God Pentecostal Church Uhhuh.

And she was healed. Uh, she had really bad arthritis where she couldn't and she wouldn't be able to work. And uh, she got healed of that at that service and she accepted Christ as her personal Lord and Savior and ask God to forgive her and all that. And uh, so that started her whole journey with God. So, you know, not, not to detract what she did as a Catholic when she was young, 'cause she had a relationship with God.

Mm-hmm. And it just more just evolved into a real permanent personal relationship. And, uh, so we were at the same, same place spiritually.

So you guys would pray together. You went to the same church, we pray? Yeah.

Same church, pray together, but we're always together. Uh. I mean, we were like best friends. Uh, so we hung out together and, uh, did things together. We traveled together.

. So I don't consider myself a prayer warrior. I do pray. But she was a prayer warrior and she'd pray a lot. So Billy is, is her nephew, and Billy just became a police officer. He was about a year into the, being an officer in Minnesota, in Minneapolis, in a real rough section of town.

And gosh, he just retired this year. But, uh, Shirley got intense. Uh, she knew she was praying for Billy, but she didn't know why or what for. And, uh, so we were at a family reunion about, I don't know, 10 years later. And she's asked Billy, you know, back like 10 years ago or whatever timeframe it was, was there something that happened one night with you?

And Right. He knew right off the bat, this young boy passed him and then turned around. Uh, so he passed them there back to back, and when he got in front of Billy, he turned around with a gun in his face in Billy's face, her nephew. And he fired it. And it didn't go off. The bullet didn't go off, and he ran away.

So Billy remembered that night that surely was praying for him.

Well, I never knew her dad, but she talked about her dad often and, uh,

So I kind of knew her dad just from a, she said he is grumpy. He was an alcoholic when he came back from the war, and she just stayed away from him. But in his last day, she was up there, uh, , at his house, and, uh, he knew he was dying. He accepted Jesus. And, uh, he was singing, uh, a Christian song, marching.

I forget the name of the song, but, uh, he was ready to die and, and she was very happy and, uh, she helped him through the whole process,

And she often prayed in tongues, right?

Yep.

Tongues a big,

yeah. We both prayed in tongues and, uh,

so to both of us, God is just a real, he was like our best friend. He's like our father. He's like our friend or, or a savior, you know, he's just our healer or everything.

He's that. We both felt that, you know, before we met, we were at that stage.

Yep. God was the center. Yep.

Oh, I wouldn't change a thing in Shirley. Oh,

she's just a loving person. She loved God. She loved me, she loved our family. We had a, our two families merged together perfectly. Uh. So I had, uh, son, Matt, Mandy, and Ashley and man Mandy and Ashley was living with me at the time with Shirley and uh, Ashley had a little hard time at first Ashley thought.

So anyways, uh, this podcast has brought out a lot of about Shirley that I didn't know. ,

I think, honestly I think my dad is having the hardest time 'cause he was married to Shirley for 23 years. And obviously we're all different people in different phases of our lives and our different chapters that we go through, we all grow, we all evolve. So my dad had Shirley in her last 23 years of her chapter, her last 23 years of life.

And so he's hearing stories from, her earlier chapters in life that he had no idea about. He could never imagine Shirley making those choices. 'cause that wasn't the Shirley. He was married to. He is not only grieving her, but he's also now having to face some pretty dark realizations of things from Shirley's past.

But do you think that also presents a humanity?

It does. It does. And I think he, him and Eddie are really close. They go and grab lunch weekly. They're, they've always been really close, but since Shirley's passing, they've, their bond has, grown deeper and he sees the healing that Eddie is doing and is healing with his mom.

And I think that that's been very rewarding for my dad.

And with my mom.

I hope you know that, like I said, the um, that maybe there'll be a moment like that that I had with my granddad to help bring closure to some of the things we've talked about with our life. So, and then I also know that it, it takes time to go through different grieving processes, and so I, I just kind of chalk it up to that at the moment, you know, that you have to go through,

through those kinds of things and, and, and everybody grieves in different ways and, and, um, and you know, for me, for the most part, it's just dismissive and. Not think about it too much. So it was kind of nice what you've done here, for me to kind of vocalize some of that pain and grief and, um, and having done so or in doing so, it makes it less, it takes the sharpness of it away, and I can already, feel that like, why so hurt?

Why so offended? And because it starts those little wheels turning, about, well, what was going on in other person's life. You know, as to why, things end up the way they did and let alone why you feel the way that you feel. And um, and like I said, there was a sympathy that came out of understanding my dad from meeting my grandfather that like I said, had a, a lot of power to break all of those hurts and animosities.

And I've kind of shied away from too much talk about any of that. He's probably noticed that when we go out for lunch and things like that, I just haven't talked about her, just don't talk about her, uh, for now, and, um, I. To give myself time to work through those things. And I'm confident that there is a break like that, there is something that will dislodge those kinds of, um, feelings and smooth it over.

I don't know what it is or where it is or when it is, but having experienced that with my dad, then one, I know it's possible. And not only it being possible, but it's necessary, necessary because what was I trapped in before that, hate, animosity, anger, and, um, so, thank you guys.

For bringing the opportunity. And now when I look back on my mom's life her, like the rest of us went through lots of growth and changes. People change along the way and grow and come to value things that they didn't, even if it's like, me as a little kid who totally doesn't value the gift that somebody gives me.

And, you know, in short order, come to understand the value of gifts and that, and even like when I was looking at that photograph that, uh, he had of my grandpa, and it was like, yeah, it was the last time I spoke to him, and it could have been so much more, but no, I had to go smoke weed in the. In the sticks and take care of me and blow off that one last opportunity that you had to, to spend with your grandfather and, and those prices are what make it so that it doesn't, hopefully you don't make that mistake again.

And now, I make it a point, to say, I love you when I hang up the phone. When I'm talking to somebody I care about, because you never know. You just never know when. That's the last time.

Well, I am Edward Barton Carol Jr.

And Shirley? Jean Barrett was my mom. And brought me into this world along with my sister so yeah, that's, that's who I am.

That's perfect. Thanks Eddie.

What are some of the biggest things that you've learned through this project?

Sitting down with Eddie. I never in a million years thought I would hear him say, Shirley was not the same. Shirley.

Um, I never imagined this project solving mysteries and answering questions for everybody else involved, like I, I intended for them to answer my questions. I never intended for me to contact these people and for them to be asking me questions. And then I realized just.

The lack of closure that so many people involved in Shirley's life and involved in her stories had.

One of the biggest ones is Patty Wells. For years I could not find her. I thought I was chasing her ghost. I would Google her, obituary. I couldn't find anything. I was like, this Patty literally disappeared after 1986. I was like, maybe she was put in the witness protection program.

She ended up moving, uh, leaving Arizona shortly after this had happened. So she just, nobody called her like, that's crazy to me. Nobody called her. It was Patty Wells that got, Sharon to the ranger station and they made that 9 1 1 call.

And if Patty Wells had never made that 9 1 1 call, the barricade never would've been set up at the base of the mountain. And they never would've caught him. I mean, I can't say never would've. You don't know if they would've caught him. Yeah, but they wouldn't have caught him that day. Another big one is my own, my Fear with Steve s Scaggs, I have been so afraid of him since hearing this story and hearing, seeing Shirley visibly afraid of him, knowing, 20 years ago when she got a letter saying he was gonna be released from prison in a couple years her worry that he might come after her and, you don't know, right?

These are irrational fears, but those fears seeped into me. And for 20 years I lived with it. I never, ever, like, I knew I had to call him, but I couldn't see anything past that.

 There is one Super Bowl Sunday that will always stand out from the others to me. February 9th, 2025.

 Can you hear me right now?

Yes, I can hear you now. Okay. That's weird.

I got this.

Okay.

Hello? Hi, is this Steve? Yes, Steve. My name's Amanda. You don't know me, but I'm Shirley's stepdaughter. Yeah. Okay. You're I am. I'm just calling. Well, first I wanna let you know that Shirley has passed away. I found out a few months ago. Oh, you did? Okay. I read more a paper and I, I just accidentally.

Okay. Um, I'm having a hard time hearing you. Can you hear me okay? Gimme just one moment please. Okay.

Hopefully this will help. Yeah, I can hear you a little bit better. How are you? Hopefully I'm not, I just found out it's Super Bowl Sunday. So are you watching the game? Oh, it doesn't start for another hour. Oh, well I guess it, it starts right about now. Okay. Um, I'll be quick. I'm just call, you're probably wondering why I'm calling you.

I wanted to let you know that before Shirley passed away, um, she kept a couple journals and some of those journals were of her time up in Alaska with you. Yes. And um, and I've been reaching out to everybody that knew her and, um, getting their stories and their memories and collecting, you know, just lots of stuff that happened in Shirley's life. So I thought I would call you too, um, but yeah, so I was just curious if you'd be willing to chat with me. Okay. I'm gonna actually be in Phoenix next weekend. Would you be willing to meet up? Uh,

sure. Where are you? Where do you live? I'm actually in Utah, so I'm a little far away. Yeah.

And I would say I, yeah, I've got a lot of question since we, since we, uh, shall we say discontinued or

Yeah. Our life together. Uh, the, the way I found out about her passing was I was, I was just curious and I looked up on my phone to see where she was at nowadays, and it said a couple of different things and it said that she had passed away, I guess it was last year or the year before. Yeah, she passed away in September of 2023.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, she lived in Tucson. I was shocked by that. Yeah, we, you know what, we all were, she was only 78 years old and it kind of came on pretty fast. Um, what was it? So she got COVID and I just feel like she never fully recovered from being sick. Oh, wow. I know. Yeah.

So, but she was, she was a, a wonderful woman. She was an amazing stepmom. I miss her dearly. Um, I miss her stories. She was such a storyteller and, uh, yeah, I, I was really, I noticed that she was really involved in, uh, helping animals. Yes. Yes. She helped run an organization called Paws Patrol, where they rescued, um, feral kittens and cats off the street.

Would you believe I've got about nine feral cats living in my backyard. No, but I do know that you guys would have lots of animals up in Alaska all the time. Oh, we, we had some wonderful animals up there. Yeah. Yeah. She was a great woman. Um, yeah, I would love to just sit down with you and get some of these stories.

Yeah, it's uh,

I'm just trying to, trying to think of things right now 'cause I'm just, uh, you know, surprised by this call. Yeah. I'm sorry for, yeah, it's probably kind of a shock.

Okay. So here's a funny little, um, funny little fact for you. So she married my dad. In 2001. And his name is also Steve. It's also Steve, yes. Well, which you didn't have to learn anything new. No. So that was an easy one for her. And how is he He's, he's doing okay. He, he really misses her. They were married for, gosh, 23 years.

Wow. Yeah.

I, uh, I. You probably know all about my ups and downs. Yeah. Yeah. I won. I won't lie. I, I do know the story. Um, there's no reason to lie. I don't lie about it. Yeah. You know what though? Surely like, it was just, you know, she told us, matter of fact, like this is what happened, but she, she never said anything bad about you.

She actually had a lot of, um, good memories with you and the kids, obviously. I think she was sad, you know, sad that it happened. Well, I, it, that was the most ridiculous thing in the world

and, uh.

I realized I, I was just, I was really lost. I, I made a mistake with Shirley, and I'm not putting Shirley down any way on this, And so I had a lot of conflict going on in my head all the time.

And Shirley never really knew that. And, uh, I just ended up going stupid. Now, uh, I made a con, uh, commit, but never again will I, to the best of my knowledge, hurt anyone physically, mentally anyway.

Uh, I just wish I had really got all that stuff settled in me before I had met Shirley. And, uh, this world would be a little bit different then.

You told me your name. I don't remember what it is. It's, it's Amanda. Amanda? Yep. Anybody call you Mandy? Actually, my whole family does. Shirley called me Mandy. Yep. Do you have a a pen and a paper? I can. You can write it down and I'll give you my phone number.

I'll have a pen and paper in a minute. Okay.

At least I think I will.

Yeah, I've wondered about you folks. I, I thought more than one that I would, uh, like to get ahold of purely and ask if I could come down there Tucson to see how she's doing and her husband and everything, because I wasn't at all upset with her, uh, getting married again. She deserves to have a good life.

Yeah. My, my dad will actually be with me next weekend if, if it's okay if I bring him. I imagine, think it is. Yeah. That, that might be kind of fun to have two of Shirley's husbands in the same room.

Like I said, I'll be in town next weekend, so whenever a good time is for you, I'd, I'd love to come meet you. Okay.

So, well, I'll let you get to the Super Bowl. I don't know where the game's at. Well, I guess so. It should be in the second quarter now. Yeah. Sorry for keeping you so long,

Um, I'll be in touch with you and call me when, when you know what day works best for you too.

Will do. Okay. Enjoy the game. Talk to you later. Bye bye-Bye.

​  Coming up 📍 next time.

,

What would you tell those two kids in the living room?

These two kids? Mm-hmm.

yeah. I, I have known some strange things, uh, people have said right when they're dying

there's a journal entry about the day. Three or four cops showed up at your house

I kind of blame myself for that one falling apart. Well, I blame myself for everything falling apart, but,

Um, I just met the guy that I've been so scared of my entire life. 📍

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shirley-you-cant-be-serious/id1830515861?i=1000722504722