The Long Shadow of an Unsolved Case

Episode 5: Chasing Ghosts

When Cold Cases Refuse to Stay Quiet

Content note: This article discusses topics that may be disturbing.

This episode of Shirley, You Can’t Be Serious doesn’t begin with a scream or a siren. It begins the way so many real tragedies do, on a normal morning.

A bike ride. A familiar route. A woman who didn’t come home.

What follows is not just the story of Joan Marie Archer, a 25-year-old dog trainer who disappeared in Tucson in 1986. It’s also a story about how cold cases linger - inside families, inside communities, and inside the people who keep brushing up against them decades later.

This is where Shirley’s story intersects with Joan’s. And once you see the connection, it’s impossible to unsee.

A Normal Morning in Tucson

On April 27, 1986, Joan Marie Archer went out for an early morning bicycle ride - something she did often. She followed a familiar 12-mile route toward Mission San Xavier del Bac, a place that mattered to her spiritually and personally.

When she didn’t return, the people who loved her knew something was wrong.

Her bicycle was later found hidden off South Mission Road. Months later, her remains were discovered in the desert nearby.

From the very beginning, Joan’s case carried the weight that so many unsolved cases do:

• delays in response

• evidence spread across agencies

• theories that never became charges

• and a family left waiting for answers that never came

Why This Case Keeps Surfacing

While researching Shirley’s life, Joan Marie Archer’s name kept appearing again and again in connection with the Mount Lemmon attacks and Steven Skaggs.

The timing alone is unsettling.

Joan’s remains were found the day before two women were attacked on Mount Lemmon. Investigators at the time believed the cases could be connected. A forensic pathologist noted similarities in the wounds. Law enforcement was convinced they knew who was responsible but they never had enough evidence to bring Joan’s case to trial.

That gap between certainty and proof is where cold cases live.

And that gap shaped Shirley’s life in ways she couldn’t have understood at the time.

The People Left Behind

One of the most powerful parts of this episode is not the investigation, it’s the voices.

Keith, Joan’s fiancé, doesn’t speak like someone chasing a mystery. He speaks like someone who never stopped loving her.

He remembers:

• her kindness

• her trust in people

• her devotion to dogs and training

• the future they were supposed to have

He remembers being treated as a suspect before being cleared. He remembers riding four wheelers in the desert looking for her. He remembers learning she had been found and not knowing how to process a world where she no longer existed.

“There’s been no closure for me,” he says simply.

And he’s not alone.

A Family Changed Forever

Joan’s sister, nephew, and extended family describe something that rarely makes it into headlines: what unresolved grief does to families over time.

After Joan’s death:

• conversations stopped

• memories were buried instead of shared

• guilt lingered quietly

• relationships fractured

Some families fight loudly for justice. Others survive by silence. Neither path guarantees healing.

This episode captures that reality with honesty without judgment.

The Evidence That Vanished

Joan’s case was further complicated by failures far beyond her family’s control.

Key forensic evidence was mishandled. Some of it was analyzed by an FBI examiner later discredited for misconduct. Other materials were lost entirely.

Investigators retired. Witnesses passed away. The trail went cold.

And yet - the impact didn’t.

Cold cases don’t end. They fade unevenly. They resurface when someone asks the wrong (or right) question. They live on in birthdays, bike paths, missions, and memories.

Why Shirley’s Story Matters Here

Shirley didn’t know Joan. But Shirley lived inside the orbit of the same man investigators believed was responsible.

This episode isn’t about proving guilt or solving the case in an hour. It’s about acknowledging what it means to realize, years later, that your life overlapped with unanswered violence.

It’s about how fear seeps in retroactively. How trust erodes backward. How the past rearranges itself when new context appears.

And how telling the story, finally becomes its own form of justice.

Remembering Joan Marie Archer

Joan wasn’t a headline. She wasn’t a case file.

She was:

• a dog trainer

• a teacher

• a sister

• a fiancé

• a woman building a life she loved

People still think about her. They still wonder who she would have been. They still wish the world had protected her better.

Keeping her name spoken matters.

Because silence is where cold cases disappear and this one refuses to.

🎙️ Listen to this episode of Shirley, You Can’t Be Serious to hear the voices, the pauses, the memories, and the moments where past and present collide.

Some stories don’t resolve. But they still deserve to be told.

Full Episode Transcript:

​Dead Serious Media.

 The following episode contains topics intended for mature audiences.

 KVOA television four Tucson. It's a lovely morning for a bike ride. 12 minutes after the hour of six o'clock. Good morning, Tucson. Today is Sunday April 27th. Soviet authorities ordered the evacuation of Pripyat, the city of about 50,000 people. In response to the nuclear accident at the Chernobyl power plant and man's best friend learned some manners, dog obedience training and more at Pima County College.

We have that story and more after the break. 

 And now the story of canines, A Cold case and my stepmother, Shirley, forgetting it all. I'm Amanda Fallon

and this is The Shirley. You can't be serious podcast.

shirley's memoir is bringing healing enclosure to so many stories. In this chapter of the story, we discuss all the loose ends and where the story settles them. Stories like cold cases that Shirley's life brings light to after being in the darkness for decades. In our visits with Eddie, he expressed. I think healing is found in the talking of the pain.

Healing comes through recounting the stages of Shirley's life and coming to realizations. Jamie's need to speak to Scaggs about Mount Lemon after so many years. All those involved within the stories of the stories that never had their questions answered. The closure this brings to my dad as he grieves the life they shared and my own need to conquer the fear.

Steven Scaggs.

One in particular, Archer, was that the name? Uh, John Gray Archer was, um, a bicyclist. Right. Who went missing in April? In Tucson.

But since he got so many years, they just kind of let that go. .

But, um, , I, you know, I was devastated.

 ​ Live from the Kbo, a broadcast center. This is Channel four Action News.

Joan Marie Archer 25, a petite blonde dog trainer found serenity and early morning bicycle rides. She pedaled the same 12 mile route from her south side home to mission San Javier every morning. So when she didn't return from an early morning ride, April 27th, 1986.

Her family knew something was wrong. Days later, her silver 12 speed was found undamaged and hidden under Bush's 20 feet off South Mission Road. Three months after archer's disappearance, a hiker found her skeletal remains scattered near where her bike was found. An autopsy revealed she died of multiple stab wounds.

 In exploring Shirley's story, I' repeatedly crossed paths with Joan Marie Archer. While other people become involved with researching her cold case, I have become interested in getting to know her as a person. I want to feel the love that Joan's people were filled with. And where are they in that search for closure.

 This is Keith. He was engaged to Joan in 1986.

 Hi there. Hi Keith.

How are you?

I'm doing good. I just wanted to let you know that I'm, I am recording this conversation on my Zoom mic.

No, that's fine. I don't mind. Okay.

So you were able to get ahold of the detective?

Yes.

How did that go?

Um, well, um, we talked for a while and, um, it was actually pretty helpful because he helped me recall some things that I hadn't remembered um, but, he was the detective that took the cold case like 10 years ago.

Okay.

And, and worked on the cold case for a while and he's, he did some interesting things.

Um, you'll be able to, uh, reach out to him and he, he said he'd be very, very happy to speak with you.

Keith is referring to Detective Preuss who took over the Archer Cold case in 2011. He did not wanna talk. In fact, every detective involved in the Archer and Mount Lemon cases didn't wanna talk. A lot of the original officers have passed away. Detectives Kowski and Hardiman were two of the original investigators on the case. I found both of them and made attempt to connect. Detective Kowski was unreachable. And Detective Hardiman initially expressed interest in participating until she reviewed her files.

She then refused, stating Scaggs was the most dangerous person she has ever met and declined to be interviewed.

 And what is your connection to the case?

See, uh, here I am. You called to talk to me, asked me questions, and I'm gonna ask you a whole bunch of questions.

That's fine. Because I told I have a really weird link to the case.

What? Yeah, you Well, you can tell me about it. Um, but now my next question was, how the hell did you get my phone number?

Oh, I actually got it off the white pages.

Really? Yeah. So I actually saw an article as I was researching the Mount Lemmon case. Oh, Joan Marie Archer's name just kept anything in 1986. Her name would just pop up in almost every article that was based on the Mount Lemmon case. Mm-hmm. Um, because they would link the two, they would be like, he's also a suspect in the disappearance or of, Joan Marie Archer.

 When I started on this journey, I quickly learned how interconnected the Mount Lemon Story and Joan's case were. Anywhere I searched for Mount Lemon Files. Joan appeared Scaggs was the prime suspect, but was it really him or was it just his bad luck that they found Joan the day before the Mount Lemon attacks?

Either way, that week deeply impacted Shirley's life.

 At the time of his sentencing, scaggs was considered a suspect in Archer's homicide. Even though forensic tests were inconclusive, representatives from the Pima County Sheriff's Department did not provide any new information.

But I guess at the time they actually had found her body. So he was the prime suspect.

They found her body the same day that he stabbed the two girls up on Mount Lemmon.

Yeah. And I guess the big similarity that they would talk about is the stab wounds are exactly the same. They went horizontally versus vertically.

 There is one apparent link between the two cases. An affidavit filed in Pima County Superior Court said the stabbing wounds the victims received are similar. The results of the forensic exams are expected at any time from the FBI in Washington dc.

 Dr. Allen Jones, the forensic pathologist that reviewed the injuries in the Mount Lemon case and those found through Joan Archer's autopsy was convinced they were related.

 In my review, I made a series of peculiar observations and similarities between this victim of the Mount Lemon Case and those of Joan Archers. Both victims sustained similar type horizontal stab wounds to the back and neck areas between either vertebrae or the rib cage.

Through my training and expertise as a pathologist, I am noting these types of horizontal wounds and also the location of these types of wounds being on the back area. Are unique in character and rarely seen the perpetrator possessed some working knowledge of the human anatomy, which is indicated by the method.

The wounds were inflicted to fit between vertebrae and ribs. It is my opinion that the perpetrator may have some type of training or possesses knowledge about the use of a knife.

 My name is Dr. Allen Jones. I'm the Chief Medical Examiner for Pima County.

 Good evening. Today is April 18th, 1991. The man, probably more familiar with death than anyone else in Pima County chose to take his own life. This week, Dr. Allen m Jones, chief Medical Examiner for Pima and 12 other Arizona counties was found dead Tuesday morning by Pima County Sheriff's deputies in a northwest side motel room.

Sheriff Sergeants Richard Castigar said Jones 44 had been reported missing by his wife, who told deputies she found a suicide note several hours after. Jones left home at 9:00 AM Monday.

 Joan Archer's case proceeded to be a series of unfortunate events. Evidence that was sent out for analysis was mishandled and lost.

 The FBI replied with devastating news.

 Thank you for contacting the FBI Field office regarding forensic examinations conducted by the FBI laboratory in the investigation of the homicide of Joan Marie Archer. In researching the FBI laboratory file associated with this case, we determined that former FBI laboratory examiner Michael Malone conducted forensic examinations at the request of your office.

Please be advised that Examiner Malone was among the 13 examiners who were criticized in an April 15th, 1997 report issued by the US Department of Justice entitled the FBI laboratory an investigation into laboratory practices and alleged misconduct and explosive related and other cases. The OIG conducted A through review of allegations of wrongdoing and improper practices within certain sections of the BI laboratory.

 An Arizona man is free tonight after a DC Superior Court Judge acknowledged he was wrongfully imprisoned. Donald Gates, who has always maintained that he was innocent of the crime, had been in prison for nearly 30 years until his release was ordered earlier this week. Gates had been convicted by evidence that was supposedly analyzed by an agent that has since then been discredited

former FBI, special Agent Michael P. Malone has become notorious as an unreliable and unethical expert witness who likely committed perjury in hundreds of trials. Alone's conduct was first exposed by famed FBI whistleblower, Dr. Frederick White Hurs. Who now heads the National Whistleblower Center's Forensic Justice Project.

Dr. Whitehurst first revealed the widespread corruption at the FBI crime lab back in 1993 when he too was a lab employee. Whitehurst charged that Malone and other FBI crime lab employees were not only manufacturing evidence to support prosecutors, but were engaged in providing perjured trial testimony among other acts of misconduct.

A 1997 report from the Department of Justice's office of the Inspector General validated Whitehurst charges and cited Malone as one of 14 FBI crime lab agents that conducted inaccurate tests and made false reports. Dr. Whitehurst revealed that Malone had perjured himself and falsified evidence when testifying during proceedings.

 And just like that one by one details of Joan's case were evaporating. I was determined to at least keep her in the minds of those who knew her. 

I guess we could start today with maybe you just describing Joan and your relationship with her.

Um, wow, wonderful caring person. Um, overtrusting, uh, our connection was dogs and, I met her through, through another woman in Tucson, that I was working for back in the early eighties. Um, doing a lot, uh, dog training and stuff. And so then I met Joan through her , our connection was, training dogs and showing dogs professionally handling dogs professionally.

She, , went to UU of A and, , graduated. With a bachelor's degree and she was a teacher.

She was pretty young, right?

Yeah. Um, well I think she was born , maybe 62, 64, something like that. I'm not sure. I don't remember. Sorry, Joan. I probably should remember, but, uh, she was interviewing for teaching jobs when she went missing.

She was going to go to , , some seminar in Phoenix and I was gonna come by and take care of her dogs or, um, you know, halfway through the day, let 'em out, you know, do do some things.

Um, and she also had a dog that had puppies, so, you know, I was gonna be over there, you know, checking that out, make sure everything was fine. And, and when I got there, you know, her, her bicycle wasn't there, her truck was still there. Um, her house was like, basically wide open. And that's when I knew right.

away, wait a minute. She, I knew she was going on a bike ride and I'm like, she didn't come home. Hmm. And so that's when, that's when, you know, I knew right away something was up, but, um. Our relationship was good. I mean, we had rocky times just like everybody else. I mean, but, uh, it was really good. It was, um, you know, I got along with her parents really well.

Got, you know, her, her brothers, you know, that I had met, got along with them. Um, it, they were a really good family, you know, she was very religious and, you know, went to Catholic, uh, mass every week. Um,

but yeah, most of our life was centered around, around her and or around us and dogs and showing dogs, training dogs, doing stuff with the dogs.

Yeah. So, well you guys were engaged, right? To be married? Yes.

Um, how long were you guys together?

Ooh, you know, I met,

Joan in 19 84, 84 ish. And when we first met, um, we were really good friends for probably a year to a year and a half before a relationship started, we were really good friends before we ever became romantic.

So you guys didn't live together?

We did. Um, at one point, uh, right after we, we started together romantically.

Um, we did live together for a short period of time, and then we were kind of in a rocky point of our relationship and I moved out and, and then we had not moved back in together.

The newspaper described that she would normally go for bicycle rides, like 12 mile bike rides. Do you think she actually went for a bike ride that morning?

Oh yeah. She went for a bike ride. And she was abducted while she was on the bike ride.

Do you mind describing more about that day? Were you the one that notified law enforcement?

Oh yeah. I went over to her house. I told her that I would swing by and and check on her dogs and, um, like I said, I went over there and, um, and I knew she hadn't come back from. From her bicycle ride. So I immediately got in my, in my truck and drove out to the mission.

'cause that's where she would always ride to, is the mission San Xavier. And so I drove all the way up and all the way back. Didn't see any signs of accidents or anything like that. I, called the hospitals.

There was only three of 'em at the time in Tucson. So it was, it was a, you know, it was pretty quick. And, and then after that I called the sheriff's department and I told them that what I had found and, I knew that something was up. And, and they were like, well, she hasn't been gone long enough. We can't do anything about it.

And, and so I, I said, okay. When should I call back? . So I, um, I called 'em back later that evening.

And finally got the ball rolling. Mm-hmm. Um, they sent somebody by to take a report and then they got a couple detectives, uh, over there that started questioning me. And, um, so then, you know, the, the investigation started rolling. I think that it was the next day, later in the day that they found out where her bicycle was at

 This is Eyewitness News with Roger Grimsby and the Eyewitness News team. Good evening law enforcement officials searched in vain for more than three hours yesterday for a 25-year-old Southwest side woman who disappeared while on a bicycle ride Sunday morning. A sheriff spokeswoman remarked that she didn't know why the search did not get underway until yesterday afternoon.

Searchers from the Sheriff's Search and Rescue team aided by sheriff's detectives, dogs, and a Tucson helicopter covered the route of Archer's daily ride. The search was to resume today at seven 30.

 When, the news broadcast hit the news, then these people called the sheriff's department said, Hey, we found this bicycle. And they set up a command post right there at that area they were gonna search the desert area, you know, where they found the bicycle. Um, and then.

, I'm thinking it was the next day they interviewed me for, you know, a number of hours. . And obviously, you know, number one suspect, you know, when somebody disappears and, and they played that, you know, number one suspect thing on me. And while I was sitting in the interview, I was wearing glasses and one of the detectives were like, what's that on your glasses? And I'm like, what do you mean what's on my glasses?

And I took my glasses off and he took my glasses away from me and said, we'll give these back to you tomorrow. Maybe. You know, he thought it, he thought maybe it was a, a spot of blood or something on my glasses. And so he wanted to take 'em and have 'em analyzed. Anyway, so I finished the interview, um, went home and went in my house and like 15 or 20 minutes later, my dog started barking at my front gate.

So I went out there and the two detectives were standing out on my gate and, um. I walked out and say, what's up guys?

And we, and you know, after it was all over with, I realized, you know, they, they were just doing their job, but mm-hmm. It, it was pretty ugly, but they were like, we want you to come down and take a polygraph test. And I was like, no problem.

Mm-hmm.

You know what? Whatever we need to do to move past me because I'm not your suspect, you know?

And I was at the mission at the command post, and they finally brought my glasses back to me and said everything was fine.

 Is your name Keith? Yes. Do you know Joan Archer? Yes. Did you see Joan anytime after seven 8:00 PM.

 But, um, ba basically, as soon as I took the, the polygraph, then they quit focusing on me

Joan had no enemies. I mean, she was, she was that kind of person.

Everybody loved Joan. She was just as sweet as can be.

Were you notified that she had been found before you heard about the case on Mount Lemmon or after? Yes. Before. Yes.

And was she found out in that area that you guys were searching?

Yes, she was. She

was,

in fact, where they found her. We, we also went out there in quads. We rode all over the desert in Quads, trying to find any evidence of her or anything. And I actually rode a quad probably within 50 to 60 yards of where her body was found, and I never saw her.

Oh, was she buried?

Um, I, I don't, I think that maybe kicked some leaves and rocks and stuff on her, but, um, it wasn't, , you know, , he didn't dig a grave and put her in a grave. She was just underneath, I think she was underneath a. Mesquite tree or a sagebrush or something like that.

 No Story of Our Southwest is complete without reference to the missions built in the early days to bring civilization and Christianity to pagan Indian tribes.

One of the more colorful of these missions is San Xavier Del Buck located on the desert line, nine miles south of Tucson, Arizona for more than a century and a half, this church has been a shrine for the Indians descendants of the early native tribesmen who helped build it.

Missions would be established with priest and native working side by side, building a house of worship where God's will was done.

And Javier mission, an absolutely Arizona story, 225 years in the making.

Legend says if the cat on the facade ever catches the mouse, the building or the world will end. The mouse being chased by the cat at San Javier has an advantage. The original craftsman gave the mouse eyes, but not the cat.

 How far was she from, um, San Javier mission?

Oh, maybe a mile, mile and a half.

How did you feel if, when you got the call that she'd been found?

Um, well, I was at work. I worked for, back then it was Hughes Aircraft. Now it's Raytheon. I was an engineer for them. And, um, I remember getting the call from RC and he said that they had found a body in the desert that it's not a hundred percent confirmed that it's Joan, but he said, it's Joan.

And I just remember going home and, I was just like in, in a stupor, I didn't know, I didn't know what to do.

I didn't know what to think. I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to react to it.

I think about her often. I, Things happen in my life and I go, Joan would've liked that. And, uh, so I miss her a lot. She was really special. But, um, , there's been no closure for me

I've never tried to put Joan out of my mind or outta my life, but I've tried to put the situation.

Outta my mind and not think about what happened. So, um, you know, things will, things might come back to me, you know, that I hadn't thought about and I'll definitely reach out to you if it, if it does. Okay.

Thanks Keith.

On May 9th, 2022, I met Keith in Tucson, Arizona. We met up at an EEGs off of Irvington, where we had lunch together.. After lunch, he took me to where Joan lived we then traveled the same path she often took with her bike. we stopped off at San Javier mission and we visited the altar room where she would often pray. And then Keith took me a little bit further down to where Joan's body was found,

Her body was actually found three and a half miles from where her bike was found.

Her body was found on Tona Odom Indian Reservation, so there was a big chain link fence and we had to crawl underneath the giant, no trespassing sign and chain link fence.

Where we then walked about a quarter of a mile to where, uh, Joan's body was found.

I didn't know meeting with Keith that day would set me on a two and a half year Quest. To try and solve Joan Archer's cold case.

Mm-hmm.

 That same summer.

,  I connected with Joan's sister, Kathy, and her nephew, Roger.

my dad was in the military and my mother grew up in the military. And she and my dad met in California where he was stationed, and that's where they got married.

I'm 15 years older than Joan.

Were you close with Joan? I,

um, I was close, but we never lived. We communicated a lot by phone or by letter.

She spent a couple of summers here in Reno with us. So we stayed close that way. She was kind of the one I felt like after my mother died I think she was the one that kind of kept us together.

Okay.

Yeah. We found out that she trained dogs and loved animals.

She wanted a horse and that's why she joined four H. But my parents bought her a dog instead of a horse, so that's how she became interested in dogs. And she loved them. And when we would come, my son was, I think Joan was around 10 when my son was born.

And we would, when we would visit in Arizona, Joan would kind of let Paul think he was telling the dogs what to do, when actually she would be giving him signals. And I just remember he was so excited about that, thinking that he was making those dogs do all those things.

That's kind of cool.

So she was in Sierra Vista living with your father and your stepmother? Mm-hmm. And then she decided to move to Tucson?

Yes.

Okay. Was that because your other sister Chris was already living there?

No. , I don't think that my stepmother and Joan got along.

And I think, , my stepmother wanted her to move out, so she did.

Okay. So when you first heard that Joan was missing, how did you hear about that? Like who called you?

My father called me and it was the day after my birthday and I had just gotten a birthday card from Joan.

Anyway, my dad called me and he said something like, Joan is gone, is what he said, or. And it, I didn't, you know how you just really don't get it at first. And, um, then he explained to me that she had disappeared , and they couldn't find her. And then I would talk to somebody, , one of my brothers, my sister-in-law, uh, my dad almost every day from then on.

Um, and trying to, you know, just if they'd heard anything. And I think it was after they found her. I remember, I remember speaking to the sheriff and I just remember him saying, um, don't, don't try to picture what happened to her.

Yeah. That's hard. What did you think had happened to her?

Well, I didn't think she had run away. I, you know, that was always, I think the police, that's always kind of what they think. I didn't think that, so I thought something bad had happened to her.

I know my brothers were out there all the time. Um, and I know that I mounted some people on horses were out there and just looking for her for, for months.

Yeah. Keith had told us at one point, him and I believe both of your brothers had rented mm-hmm.

A helicopter or airplane. Mm-hmm. And even flew over the area They, they really tried. Um, and,

and I went out, I visited there once and my brother, um, Rick took me out to where she had, was last seen. And I just remember thinking, this is so dense out there that somebody would have to stumble on her, um, to find her.

I mean, you just, it's, there's just so many little plants and it, you just, you really can't see anything out there.

Yeah. And that's pretty much what happened.

, I can remember they interviewed , one of my brothers on tv and he said something like, we just hope she's at a McDonald's somewhere, you know?

And, and I, I, I never thought that she would've left.

Oh, that's what Keith had said too, especially, , one of her dogs had just had puppies recently.

Mm-hmm.

What was life like for your family after all of this?

Well, she, her body was found three months after she disappeared and we then, we couldn't bury her for three months because they had to do studies and, you know, they were trying to solve it. And, and I do remember her, her funeral was in Tucson. She's buried at the Catholic cemetery there.

And, um, my, brothers and my husband and, um, her a friend and I think Keith were Pall Bears. And I remember that, um, that was the only time I've ever seen my husband cry. And, um, and the TV cameras were there and I think that was one of the hardest things for me. Um, was having them there just because they, you could tell that they were focused on that pew, that row, but , my brother, allowed it because they had kept it in the news and he appreciated that.

And my dad had been mayor of Sierra Vista, so he was kind of a, big fish in a little pond. And so I think that kind of kept getting in the news as well.

Um, during this time, did the police or sheriff's department ever tell you guys, like who they thought did this or tell you they had any leads?

Yeah, the only thing that we knew was the day her body was discovered, the two girls were, , attacked up on Mount Lemmon. They told us they thought that he was the one that did it, but they never tried him for her

I think they just didn't have enough evidence.

Um, when was the last time that you were contacted by a sheriff or checked in on the case or heard anything about it?

, I have never been contacted by anyone from Tucson. Um, I was contacted by the FBIA few days after she disappeared, and I think it was because my dad told them that I had received a card from her and they, , had me go down to the FBI office here in Reno and bring the, the card and then they went over it and wanted to know what everything meant.

And I think they were looking for some kind of meaning or something that would say what she had done or why she had done it or if she was unhappy or whatever. And. Oh, you know, and I just kept, they, they go, well, what do you think this means? And I said, well, I just think it means what it says, you know what, whatever it was, it was basically just a, a birthday card with a, a note.

And so, um, but they never got in touch with me again. So most of the information that I learned was from my father or my brother, or newspaper articles.

I, I was, I, I got a, someone sent me an article, um, several years ago that, and it was many years after she had died that, um, talking about the case and just saying it was, you know, a cold case and the sheriffs who were involved were still, you know, interested in it.

But, um, but no one from, no one from Tucson ever contacted me.

I've been, I think I've been back once there and I, and I've seen the mission, but, um, like I say, I, I have not visited her, um, grave site.

I knew Joan very well. She was my mother's youngest sister. Joan was kind of a surprise to that family. She came way later than, than the others. Um, you might've heard that from Kathy, like my aunt Kathy, uh, I think was outta the house,, when Joan was born or just after.

And my connection to Joan, and again, we'd have to go back. You have to delve into the dynamics of the family, but she was very different than the rest of the archer. She was very, uh, warm and outgoing and, and had a very attractive personality. And even though she passed when I was 13. You know, even at 13 you could, I I could tell she was just super special.

she was the one that always stepped up and was always happy to do so. The babysitting is one thing, but she also did it. Tremendous amount of work. She bled her work into her social life.

She trained dogs, she loved dogs. Um, she did obedience training. She trained, , guard dogs, all kinds of, everything dog related or canine related. She was really into. And, um, that's where I spent most of my time with her. We would travel together and, um, we would show her dogs. And, um, so I could spend a lot of time with her, like overnights and other things away.

And she was always, uh, I mean, you could just tell when we get to the dog shows, it's just small community. Um, and just everyone gravitated toward her. Um, just like I said, a real attractive personality that people just kind of flock to.

Um, she had a nice setup there with that, um, whatever you wanna call 'em, canine community. So she'd take me with her and that was like, you know, for a 13-year-old, there's a huge thrill. Go to Phoenix for the weekend, show some dog, you know, it was nice.

She showed and trained, um, Shelties, I don't know if you're familiar, they're like smaller, uh, dogs with the cropped ears and pretty fluffy. Um, that was kind of her breed of choice. And she had a dog, when she first got into it, she was in high school and for four eight she had to teach, uh, a dog something.

And, you know, it went from there. But that dog was Toby and, uh, sh Toby was a, a, she and she had Toby trained so well. She would let me show Toby and I did not know what I was doing. Right. And the dog would win show after show. On the obedience side, despite me costing her points and my hands were in the wrong position, she would literally come up and correct them with her muzzle.

Um, Toby was awesome. Um, and that's where it started. And then she had a, you know, a whole host of others that she would take in and, um, and train on like a, a foster parent basis and then, you know, get 'em back to the families. You could tell, she had a nice path in front of her. She had, was making money at something that she loved to do and she was awesome at.

Um, and like I said, even like a 12 or 13-year-old could tell that. Again, I don't wanna harp on it like that family, um, was not touchy feely in terms of displays of affection and things like that. So, um, she was the one kind of outlier in that regard. So yeah, all, all the ne nieces and nephews would tell you the same thing. She was the favorite, the fun one, you know?

I have a sister. She's a half sister. So she's not any blood relation. Well, she, she's my mother and my stepfather had a baby daughter like 16 years after me, like a whole different family and family dynamic. Um, and one of my jobs at I was 16 was to call around the family and say, Hey, my sister Emily was born.

Here's the vitals, you know, the dets, however many pounds. And I remember I picked up the phone to call. Uh, grandpa and Berta answered, and she had no idea who I was. She had no idea that we were having, you know, a baby. It was, it was a pretty short conversation, but it, you know, kind of told me all I needed to know as a young adult.

She, that, that, that dynamic was crazy.

Joan's passing, like, kind of did that family in, in, in terms of Joan's father, you know, Joan's mother had already passed, so she had this, um, stepmom, but it's, it just everything got even further fractured, , how do you, how do you wanna say it?

Like., It's tough to put into words, but, um, they weren't close before that, and for a while they came together to, you know, for those two months afterward, especially to try and find her. But then over time, everything just fell, fell apart. I, I don't, I, I know Rick hasn't, didn't go to his daughter's wedding.

Um, all kinds of things like that just kind of manifested after this, you know, in the, in the next couple years. It was pretty fast, but, um, everyone was trying to rationalize like, uh, their role or what it should have been or could have been. And I think some of them harbored some guilt and, um, you know, couldn't talk about it. The family just never talked about it. My mom told me what happened or, or, or told me when she was missing, and then afterward told me that they had found her and, and to prep for the funeral.

But other than that, never ever, ever brought it up. Same for Kathy. And, and I do think, like, I really feel for Kathy because. I know she wanted to do more, but it's, you know, she was away at school and didn't, wasn't really close to Joan to be honest. She was already an adult, you know, off on her own. But it does, like, the first, when you talk to 'em, the first thing comes across as kinda like rationalizing.

Like, well I, you know, I was doing this, I couldn't do it, or I was doing that. I couldn't do it. Um, 'cause we all see the TV shows like where the, you know, the family just never stops and they just drive all the way home through the cold case and they stay in the, uh, the detective's faces and, you know, that's what you see on tv and it, that's not the way the Archer family reacted.

And not just say they didn't do a lot. I, I know Rick and Rob, like personally were up in the air in helicopters looking, just, just basically took over two months of their lives as you might expect. But I think a lot of people in the family were inwardly thinking like, what role should I have played or, or what role could I have played to, to help push the.

Conviction or, or, or whatever kind of justice would've happened, if that makes sense.

I didn't do the search. Um, we were living in South Carolina at the time, so we were all the way across the country when it happened. Um, so I didn't go for that. I went out afterward for the, for the funeral and stuff later. And, um, during that time, like I said, my mom or anyone in the family, but was just reticent to talk about it.

And you just didn't, I didn't, at 13 did not know all the activities that were going on, and there was a couple months afterward, um.

Yeah, I remember my mom took me to the local donut shop and we sat there and we got a donut and she said Joan went out for a bike ride and um, you know, Joan didn't come back.

And that was like, pretty much it. And, and, uh, at 13 I was so stupid, was like, okay, well let me know when she gets back and Okay. I didn't really comprehend it. I, I remember also that we got up and we were walking out and my mom was just like, dazed and the waitress came and pounded on the glass from the inside the restaurant.

And, um, I was like, Hey mom, I think you've right to leave a tip or something. But like, she didn't even pay. She was just like, so in the zone. We just got up and walked out. She, she's, those kind of communications were tough on her. She did not, again, from her. Normally think of as maternal or paternal conversations and, and caring just wasn't entirely there. Which, you know, it's tough. It's your sister. She did not wanna be there telling, it was probably like the last place in the world she'd ever wanna be is telling her, you know, son, that favorite aunt is possibly gone forever.

So I would definitely give her that. It's gotta be hard.

I, I literally said like, yeah, I didn't think it was a problem at all. I was like, oh, geez. Yeah. Let me know when she comes back. I'll do whatever we need to do.

Very quickly that I saw my mom lost any hope of, of any kind of like positive outcome. Um, I think in that next three months, it was all about like, gosh, we gotta find something. We gotta know something. Right? Like, you don't, it's not gonna be closure at that time, of course, but just something because they're, you know, totally in the dark, found the bike.

Um, I have a couple bins here from my mom with, with photos that I, I was gonna go through and kind of scan any, but, um, I don't recall ever seeing a, like a. Police report or anything.

I really think my mom would've dealt with it by just completely suppressing it and not saving that kind of stuff.

My mother never brought it up again after the funeral. Never ever brought it up again. My half sister that was born 16 years later is named after her. Her middle name is Joan. Um, but, but other than that, like my mom just never brought it up again, and I know.

The, the most conversation I've had with it about anyone in the family was, is my sister who wanted to know who she was named after and has done her own investigation. It kind of made her way to this Skaggs character on her own, via the internet. But everything I've learned about the case was way afterwards doing my own research.

I think that's what, I think that's the latter. It was painfully obvious, at least for my mother and Aunt Kathy, I think, I don't know, I wasn't around her as much then, obviously, but, um, yeah, I, I. It's like multiple tragedies in, in one, right? Like you lose Joan. But then at the same time, the this family dynamic, which is not awesome anyway, it just, everything disintegrated from the, from the Archer side for our family.

Like the family just broke apart. And over time a couple of siblings came back together, is my take on it. But, um, I remember one time, well, one of the times I went back to Tucson, I called up my brother, or I'm sorry, my uncle Robin. He's like, oh yeah, I'm talked to you in 20 years. Oh yeah. I like, this is great.

Like, I'm gonna be out there. Let's get together. He's like, I don't know if I can make it for lunch. They're just not close. It just, it is just bizarre to me.

Yeah. I mean, maybe if we, it's, it's just what I knew, so it's not started to put it in context until later. You see how other families operate. Like my wife's family, how close they are. It's like, wow, I didn't know people were like that.

Kathy has actually overcome a lot in terms of that dynamic.

And she comes out to here to Philly all the time. We're like her surrogate family. Um, which I love. I would love for her to move out here and move in with us if she's ever watching this or listening. But, um, so , there's been some recovery here at the end.

The other archers didn't really make themselves available.

I've read an article, um. The lead investigator at the time who's now retired, was adamant he knew who did it and was a hundred percent positive in his mind. So I don't think they could have ever even developed any other suspects because they were focused on this guy.

 You try not to take things personally, but that was a tough case. Said Doug Witty, now retired, who headed the sheriff's office homicide division at the time of Archer's slaying.

The tough thing about the case is that I'm convinced who did it. But we were never able to get enough evidence that would allow us to get an indictment.  

I gotta believe they're right. Um, but again, it's like pre DNA, pre all that stuff.

We left Arizona and um, yeah, it's how she dealt. And I think that whole family, it's, it's, it's not like you see in movies where people rise to the occasion and like they're gonna just quit their jobs and seek justice continually and harass people until it's done.

Um, it's just not the way they reacted. That I saw. That family that they kind of feel a little guilt that they should have done more, uh, or could have done more and didn't. Um, it's just my sense. I know that's how I feel. I just, should I be out there in Pima County and be in the, in the, in the investigator's faces all the time?

I don't know the best way to put it. You know, like you're watching a movie and they say, oh, don't worry about her. She's a, she's a trooper, she's a fighter.

This family wasn't that. They were the, you know, push it down deep inside and move on. Okay. Wanted to close the book on it as soon as possible. And again, this is all I was a preteen or, or new teen. And the time, you know.

Probably weren't going outta the way to tell me any details if they came up, but

I don't know. I don't, I don't, I don't know that my mom ever even talked to her brothers and, and, and Kathy about it, you know, once we left and everything. I don't think it ever came up again, to be honest, that I saw from my mom.

Um, I've heard some details over the years. Um, Kathy told me once that she had talked to the detective, one of the details, she talked to the detective and, and, um, he had said. At the time that she probably didn't suffer too much 'cause one of the wounds was to the carotid artery. They could tell. And so that was fatal fairly quickly.

This what he said, whether he was trying to make Kathy feel better or not, I, I don't know. Um, I get, you know, little quips and details every now and again, but there's probably a lot, I mean, you probably know more at this point than I do about a good chunk of it or all of it. I,

I mean, I, I think Emily and I are both very curious about it, but not so much to torture Kathy or Rick or Rob over it and, you know, cause them pain.

Yeah. The Mount Lemmon one. Yeah. That's the only thing that gave me any comfort. Like, right. Like a lot of, you know, you hear it all the time, you know, they didn't get the BTK for all these real, one real, very important murders. They got up for this other thing and like, it gave me comfort to know that he was taken outta the system or taken outta the, the community.

I mean, there was an article, like I said in Tucson Magazine. I had it, actually, I could probably find it online again. You know, every now and again I just get an urge to just sit down in front of the computer and just like delve into what I can find on her, you know, via Google and the internet.

And like I said, that's where I found the one kind of like memorial webpage run to her from people in the canine community , yeah, probably six or seven years ago. I, sat down and like got recur and investigated it. If, if that makes sense. It's just, you know, from outside the family, it just, it doesn't seem to make sense why you just ain't ask Rob or Rick.

Right. They were right there.

But, I mean, there's still a ton of people alive in this world that, you know, were really affected by this.

 So many people were affected by her loss if she was still here. So many things would be different.

 I think she would've been married to Keith. He always struck me, again, I was young, but he struck me as like a standup guy and treated her very well. I, you know, as I saw them interact, very respectful, very like, treated her like, you should treat a, a potential wife or a fiance, you know, even I know they struck, I had a lot of respect for him because of that.

He was just kind of more mature than a mid 20-year-old should be, I thought, in terms of how he treated her. But she would be that, and she would have kids and she would still be doing the dog thing. Like I said, like just it, it was so great to see that literally someone making money at what they love to do.

It's like the dream come true, right? And just.

She would just have a billion friends and she would've kept the family. Maybe this is all aspirational thinking, but, you know, she would've helped, she would keep that glue to, uh, keep the family together, at least help in that regard. Um, because I do think, like I said, there were multiple tragedies involved with her passing, whether the breaking up of that family or him moving away with Berta or, I mean, Jesus, like even when I, my, I have a 13-year-old daughter, and I, I think about it every time, every time I take her to the bus stop or we walk to the bus stop, like she's, I mean, I see it, she's embarrassed of me, like when I walk to the bus stop and I just like, I just can't leave her there alone.

Right? Like it's, there's these other things that come out of this that, you know, it's just none of it. Very good to state the obvious, but. I think about Joan every time I leave my daughter somewhere, whether it's the mall or she's a camp right now, just it's a tough thing to move on from.,

I'm glad as you research Joan, you've come to know that she was very special and it, it's, it's, it is kind of getting a little bit more painful. It's not going away. It's getting a little more painful as people who cared about her and knew her and the bridge to her memory, like those people are passing away right now.

You know, whether it's my mom or my mom's dad or who, whomever, um, you know, you lose the ability to get the stories back, even though I would never ask my mom about it. It was always the possibility that it could. Uh, it's, uh, you know, one of those regrettable kind of family things that didn't get said or closed the loop on before my mom passed.

'cause, you know, she probably had a lot more info. I'm sure she did. Probably wouldn't have wanted to talk about it. But yeah, at the end of the day, I just. Just Joan deserved better from everybody, she deserves justice.

She deserved to be alive. The world would be such a better place with her in it as opposed to now.

 Jones Case remains unsolved. If you have any information about this case, contact the Pima County Sheriff's Office.

​  Coming up 📍 next time.

,

She was put in hospice care, so we knew she'd only had a couple days to live.

your mom's worried about you, you should call, you know, call your mom.

My name is Steve Cargill, and I was married to Shirley for 23 years.

well you're gonna like absolutely like freak out right now because I flew out to Arizona in February

and had lunch with the guy. 📍

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shirley-you-cant-be-serious/id1830515861?i=1000722504722