Facing Fears, Alaska Skies, and the Humanity We Almost Miss

Episode 7: 'Til The Moss Turns Pink

Some episodes don’t feel like episodes at all. They feel like reckoning.

This one began with a flight simulator, moved through Alaska’s fireweed-lined roads, wandered into messy kitchens filled with pets and teenagers, and ultimately landed in a quiet hotel room in Arizona, where fear finally met humanity face to face.

This is the story behind the episode. And maybe, in some ways, it’s the story beneath all of them.

When Fear Lives Longer Than Facts

For most of my life, Steve Skaggs existed as a shadow in the background of my childhood. A name. A sentence. A presence I feared without ever having met.

That fear wasn’t irrational, it was inherited. Built from journals, whispers, fragments of truth, and the unavoidable reality of harm. So when the moment came to call him, really call him, I knew it wasn’t just about gathering history for a podcast.

It was about facing something I’d been running from my entire life.

A Flight Simulator That Changed Everything

One of the most striking stories in this episode begins far from family or prison walls. It starts in a military flight simulator.

Steve’s job was maintaining and instructing pilots, knowing aircraft behavior so well that he sometimes understood it better than the pilots themselves. During one training session, he designed a brutally realistic combat mission for a visiting colonel.

Too realistic.

The colonel was shot down in the simulation and emerged shaken, drenched in sweat, reliving trauma from Vietnam he thought he had processed long ago.

Instead of anger, there was gratitude.

Instead of punishment, there was an unexpected question:

“Is there anything in the world I could do for you to make life better for you?”

Steve’s answer?

“Can you get me to Alaska?”

Three weeks later, he had orders.

That moment didn’t just change his career. It shaped the rest of his life and eventually, Shirley’s too.

Why Alaska Was Everything

Alaska isn’t just a setting in this story. It’s a character.

World War II transformed Alaska into a strategic hub - airfields, early warning systems, military infrastructure, and opportunity. For people like Steve and Shirley, it was more than remote wilderness. It was freedom. Purpose. Space to breathe.

Steve talks about moose kneeling in roadside grass, the smell of spring saturating the air, fireweed blooming six feet tall in late summer, and landing planes in places that barely qualified as land.

You either love Alaska or you hate it, he says. There is no in-between.

Shirley loved it.

She would never make it back.

A Marriage Built in the Middle of Life

Steve and Shirley didn’t meet young. They met carrying history - kids, jobs, responsibilities, and complicated pasts.

Their relationship wasn’t glamorous. It was real.

It was lentil soup and grilled cheese with ketchup (which Steve still insists should be illegal). It was journals filled with dry humor:

“Steve missed church to watch ballgame. I hope God will forgive him.”

It was pets, so many pets. Cats, dogs, a wolf-dog named Wolf who protected the kids with his life. A Samoyed named Sugar who lost her tail and gained a reputation as a “polar bear.” Chaos, noise, laughter, exhaustion.

Shirley documented everything.

Those journals became a bridge between memory and reality, between fear and understanding.

Teenagers, Trouble, and the Weight of Responsibility

This episode doesn’t shy away from hard truths.

Teenage boys making dangerous choices. Stolen parts. Shotguns that shouldn’t have existed. Police knocking on doors in the middle of the day.

Steve admits what many people don’t: sometimes adults choose the “cheap way out,” hoping problems disappear instead of confronting them head-on.

They didn’t have enough direction. They had Shirley but Shirley was working. And life filled the gaps.

These moments matter because they remind us how easily things can tip, and how thin the line is between guidance and neglect.

Prison, Divorce, and What Survives

Shirley stayed longer than most would.

She visited. She brought food. She ran Bible studies for other wives. She held on until she couldn’t anymore.

When she told Steve she had decided to divorce him, he felt betrayed at first.

Later, he understood.

“There was nothing I could contribute for.”

And yet, from that loss came something unexpected:

“The one positive thing that came out of that was she got to be my stepmom.”

That line holds more weight than almost anything else in this episode.

Meeting the Man I Was Afraid Of

February 15, 2025.

A lunch meeting in Arizona.

The man I had built into a monster in my mind walked in, shook my hand, and went to his truck to grab photo albums.

I watched fear dissolve into something far more complicated: discomfort, compassion, curiosity, grief.

It turns out monsters are easier to carry than humans.

Humans force you to sit with contradictions.

Forgiveness, Consequences, and the Cost of Living

Steve doesn’t ask to be absolved. He doesn’t rewrite history. He acknowledges harm, consequences, and the fact that punishment doesn’t always end when a sentence does.

Denied travel. Watched closely. Judged permanently.

He speaks openly about forgiveness, not as something owed to him, but as something necessary for anyone who wants peace.

“Without forgiveness, you can’t expect to get forgiveness when it comes to you.”

That line lingers.

Shirley’s Final Lesson

Shirley had humor until the very end.

When a medical office called to confirm her appointment, she told them plainly:

“I can’t make it. I’m currently dying.”

Even in death, she left clarity. Honesty. Humanity.

I was there the morning she passed away. I stepped out briefly to make coffee and felt it before I saw it.

She chose her moment.

People often do.

Why This Episode Matters

This episode isn’t about excusing harm.It’s about refusing to flatten people into one-dimensional villains.

It’s about facing fear instead of feeding it. About honoring people while they’re still alive. About listening, really listening, when the truth is uncomfortable.

And it’s about Shirley.

Her kindness. Her humor. Her journals. The way she loved people even when life was unbearably hard.

It’s about facing fear instead of feeding it.About honoring people while they’re still alive.About listening—really listening—when the truth is uncomfortable.

And it’s about Shirley.

Her kindness. Her humor. Her journals.The way she loved people even when life was unbearably hard.

Listen, Reflect, and Share

If you haven’t listened to this episode yet, start there. If you have, maybe sit with it a little longer.

Ask yourself:

• Who have I been afraid of without ever meeting?

• Who deserves to be honored now, not later?

• What bridges am I avoiding because they feel uncomfortable?

Sometimes the bravest thing we do isn’t speaking. It’s showing up.

Shirley, You Can’t Be Serious is hosted by Amanda Fallon and explores memory, family history, fear, forgiveness, and the humanity that lives in between. New episodes available wherever you listen to podcasts.

Full Episode Transcript:

Dead Serious.

 I was in flight simulators is what my job was. We'd get these pilots in and , I knew what the plane would do better than the pilot did because I was around that information constantly. And this colonel, came in for some annual training.

Got in there and it was supposed to be , uh, mission for a attacking embalming someplace.

And he ended up getting shot down in it he said. That was the most realistic thing I've ever been through.

I was thinking when he got outta there, I was thinking I was in trouble for doing this, for this killing. It was weird. And instead of being upset at me he was grateful and he says. Is there anything in the world I could do for you to make life better for you?

 And now the story of Facing Fears, a lunch date, and my stepmother Shirley, the reason for it all.  I'm Amanda Fallon and this is the Surely You Can't Be Serious Podcast

 World War II changed that Japanese troops occupied Atoo and Kiska in the Aleutian Islands, the first enemy occupation of American soil since 1814.

A year later, the United States struck back. At last, we understood the importance of Alaska. Seward had proved himself not only a shrewd statesman, but a farsighted strategic planner. America would never turn. Its back on its northern territory again.

World War II brought great improvements in airfields and service, a key means of travel in this vast region. It also brought radio range stations an increase in mapping and coastal charting. And Alaska's first road system, linking it with the states,

there was also an enormous increase in housing, schools, utilities, and other projects.

And most important of all, 300,000 young men of the Army, air Force, and Navy came to Alaska, many of whom would return to live permanently in the territory after the war.

The Alaskan Air Command has the exclusive responsibility for due line, our distant early warning system. Alaska is the western anchor of this system, which provides early warning of any attack against North America. Every plane, both friendly and unknown, is spotted and it's course plotted. Because of Alaska's strategic location, it is playing a growing role as a midpoint maintenance and refueling center along the polar circle air route.

 Did she tell you about how we met? So the story I was told was, one day her car broke down up in Alaska and she lived a couple houses down from you. And her friend said, oh, . Why don't you have Steve take a look at it?

Somebody, I don't even know who, but somebody had told her, 'cause she had this little pinto that Eddie was not easy on cars and when he would drive things, they broke. And, uh, that pinto was a piece of junk to begin with. And it broke down. , And she come over and she asked me, and that was basically how we had met because of that poor pinto. Yeah, I, actually heard a lot of crazy stories with Eddie and his car problems.

He did steal a Chevy blazer because the old piece of junk, shitty blazer, he got ahold of wouldn't run, wouldn't do anything right.

And he stole another blazer and he pulled the body , off of his and sat it on top of frame of the other one.

So it looked like that was, yeah, I got it all fixed now. Oh my gosh. And anyway, it wasn't too much longer after that. I was working nights. All of a sudden I'm in the bedroom, I've been trying to sleep, you know, it's daytime and income's about three or four police officers, they just broke in looking for Eddie, and I had no idea what was going on.

Anyway, he got in a little bit of trouble from that, and he, yeah, actually Shirley wrote about that in her journal.

 Got a call at work from Steve. He was awakened by the police beating on the bedroom door. They broke into the house with a search warrant to search Ed's belongings for stolen truck parts. They found stolen tires parts and confiscated both of his trucks. Ed, Joe and Butch had found an abandoned truck that had been ripped off and proceeded to rip off the rest of it.

Ed has an appointment with the police investigator tomorrow morning.

 I was so confused about that.

I had no idea what was going on. I can't even imagine waking up from a nap to three or four cops. Yeah. It wasn't pleasant. Yeah. Yeah. I bet. Well, and it sounds like Eddie was not the easiest teenager either. He had some problems. Him and his buddies. A guy, I've eaten lunch with a guy at work. I didn't know the guy, but he's talked to me about this, that and the other thing.

And he's out there. He said, you know what happened? Somebody broke into my truck the other day and stole my shotgun, and it was a really, really neat shotgun. And he was describing it. And, uh,

just about the same time Eddie was talking about we got us a gun for, so and so, one of the other kids, and we bought a coin for his birthday present and everything started adding up in my head and I demanded to see that shotgun. The shotgun I saw was the one that had been stolen. Oh, Eddie. So I had, I had two choices of basically getting him, and saying, okay, because I didn't know this guy, this other guy, or basically sending Eddie to jail over, you know, and it just, so I, I took , the cheap way out and told the other guy, no I looked at the gun.

It wasn't the same one. It was. Never saw it again. I hope they got rid of it. I would've loved to have had them take him to the guy and apologize to him.

But, uh, yeah, Eddie they weren't a gang of kids. They were kids that just didn't have the right direction given to 'em at the time. All they had was Shirley. And Shirley was at work most of the time. Yeah. And they just pretty well did whatever 17 or 18-year-old boys are going to do.

Right.

Is he doing good now?

Yeah, so Eddie still lives in Tucson, so he's not too far from you. He, uh, what's he doing nowadays? He kind of got into maintenance, like for apartment complexes, but he's doing okay. How about Corra? Corra, nobody really hears from her. She just kind of disappeared about 10 years ago. And she, she just stopped talking to Shirley too.

It really broke Shirley's heart. Crane has some. When they got married, I was 16 and Corin was 36, so she's about 20 years older than me. And, um, we were super, super close and hung out a lot. And she just went through her own divorce and I think she went through some mental issues, like, I don't wanna speak for her, but she just became really distant and she didn't even go to Shirley's funeral.

So nobody's really seen or heard from Corinne in a while. We, we did tell her about Shirley and we reached out to her and told her when the funeral was and stuff, but yeah, I don't, I can't really give you an update on Crane. Sorry. It's okay. Well, I hadn't heard anything about any of them for close to 40 years, so.

Yeah. So, I know Shirley, gosh, when I was interviewing her and just recording her stories, you know, early on, back in 2018, she spoke a lot of going and visiting you up in Florence. , She was a, a saint about visiting me up there,, in Florence?

one week a month, they would let the visitors bring food in and they would all eat at picnic tables out in a covered area.

Yeah. Um, she talked too that she told me she used to run a ministry for a lot of the wives at that prison. So she'd get together with some of the wives and they'd have bible studies. I don't know if you knew she was doing that. I'm not sure I remember that.

But yeah, she said it was really, really hard. She was really torn. She, she was just super honest with me when I was, collecting her memories

When she made the decision to divorce, 'cause she had said, she says, you know what, I'm gonna stay with you.

I was in the unit in Tucson at the time, at a visitation, and she told me, she says, she said that she had decided that it might be best to get divorced.

And you know what, at the time I felt betrayed when she told me she was gonna divorce me. But as time went on, I thought, yes, that's exactly the best thing for her, they seems to do,

because there was nothing I could contribute for.

It sounds like she, like she hung in there for quite a few years and then I think it just, I think it just got to her

you know, it, it don't matter now because the best thing.

The one positive thing that came out of that was she got to be my stepmom. Oh, sorry. No, that's okay.

I got through the, the

I guess I'd say the pain of, of it all quite a few years ago.

And it, it really irritates me when I can't remember things

someone will ask me something and I'll just hold off and say, Hey, uh, I have a trouble remembering certain things, and leave me alone and it'll come back in a few minutes.

And it always, it does, but it's not the easiest thing.

Hopefully you remember a lot of your time with Shirley then? Oh, yeah.

Probably all of it.

Did you know that Alaska was probably her favorite place she ever lived. Uh, well, I tell you what, I absolutely loved Alaska.

What brought you to Alaska? I was in the military. Okay. And, i've always been kind of an outdoorsy person and I was in Phoenix then I got transferred to Idaho. And it's got the big beautiful mountains and it's, really nice. And so I was up there for about three years and I did something that was a. It turned out to be a, a real paper.

I was in flight simulators is what my job was. And I would do maintenance on 'em, and I would also do instructions on 'em. We'd get these pilots in and I knew, I knew what the plane would do better than the pilot did because I was around the the, that information constantly. And this colonel came in for some annual training.

He wasn't part of our base, but he came in for this annual training and he got in there and it was supposed to be a, uh, mission for a attacking embalming someplace. And I knew exactly. Swear to put the enemy weaponry and everything in there that made it very hard to get through there. And I gave him the toughest, the toughest mission you can imagine.

And he ended up getting shot down in it and he, uh, popped out of there and he almost jumped over the side, which would've hurt him 'cause it was about 12, 14 feet high. And got outta there and he was in his jumpsuit and all. He was soaking wet in sweat. He said. That was the most realistic thing I've ever been through.

He says, I want to thank you. And I thought, man, I'm in. You know, I was thinking when he got outta there, I was thinking I was in trouble for doing this, for this killing. He almost gave somebody a heart attack. Anyway, he said that he had been shot down in Vietnam and he had gone through all kinds of training and psychological stuff, and he says, I thought I was completely over that.

He says, and you brought it right back to PI for me. Wow. He says, I need some more time before I get into any kind of a compact combat scenario. I need more training, more help. And

it was weird. And instead of being upset at me he was grateful and he says. Is there anything in the world I could do for you to make life better for you? I said, can you get me to Alaska?

And about three weeks later I had orders to go to Alaska. Wow. Is that just a place you always wanted to live? Oh I'd go back there right now if I could. Really? So what year was that? When did you head up there? Oh, let's see. I joined the service in 68. I was in Phoenix till 73. Then from 73 to 76 I was in Idaho.

So it was the first trip to Alaska was, uh, 76 to 79, and this was before I met Shirley. Okay. And anyway, so the second trip up there was, let's see, 79. Okay. Okay. 1980. Went back up there, 'cause they sent me back down to Idaho again. I was only there a year before. I managed to get back up to Alaska.

And this time it was for four years. So it was 80 to 84.

Then I met Shirley somewhere between 81 and 82. I think you guys were married in November of 1982, according to her journal entries. That sounds right. Yeah, it was, it definitely was. November and for our honeymoon we went down to Hawaii. Yep. She, she kept, she's got lots of journal entries.

You know what, I should bring the journals with me and I can read, or you can read some of the entries when we meet up. Okay. It might spark some memory too,

oh yeah. She, there's one, I'll share this one with you.

Sunday, January 8th, 1984. Steve missed church to watch ballgame. I hope God will forgive him.

I don't know what game that was. I don't either, but I'll have to, I'll, I'll bring 'em down with me. They're kind of I'll, I'll mark 'em too, where you're mentioned.

So, well, I'll let you get to the Super Bowl. I do look forward to meeting you in person. Okay. Yes. Thanks for calling. Yeah, yeah. Thanks for talking to me and, and not thinking this was too weird. It was definitely out of the blue, but I didn't consider it too weird. Okay. Enjoy the game. Talk to you later. Okay. Okay. Bye bye-Bye.

 The day finally came, we chose a location in Arizona to sit down with Steve Scaggs. 

 February 15th, 2025.

 What just happened?

Um, I just met the guy that I've been so scared of my entire life.

Yeah. Who

I stood literally face to face with him and just shook his hand.

Where did he just go?

He went out to his track to go get a bunch of photo albums 'cause he brought pictures and we made my dad follow him up to his truck.

Maybe have the mic a little bit closer up here. Yeah, it's, if that's okay.

Hello?

Yeah. EPA is the town I was raised in, which is 150 miles away from where I was raised.

Because you, you were Blythe, right? Yeah. Okay. I was thinking Blythe and Needles.

Both. Oh,

needles were. Needles is gone. Did you know that? It's a real ghost town now.

You're kidding. They

moved the there was a mine or something there that they closed. Needles was bigger than Blythe. Yeah. Not anymore.

Okay, Steve, we're officially recording. Wow. Just so you're aware. Wow. So Shirley's very first journal entry in this journal is November 6th, 1982. And she says the wedding was the most beautiful I've ever seen. I don't

know. It was, it was a simple wedding.

Yeah. Can you describe, yeah. I know you brought a wedding picture of the two of you guys. Yeah. And you both looked very young. And Shirley looks beautiful and you look handsome. Everybody looks young

compared to how I am now, but, uh,

well, you guys look like you're in love staring into each other's eyes.

Yeah.

I look at me and that and go, who is that? Shirley looked like Shirley.

 Your Hawaiian getaway Simplex tours and Western Airlines quality tours for the budget traveler, daily departures, first class hotels and accommodation. Aloha your airline in Hawaii.

And then you guys shortly went to Hawaii

Yeah. For your honeymoon right after the wedding. So here's a journal entry from Hawaii,

 monday, November 8th, 1982. Hawaii is beautiful like paradise, lush, vegetation and breezy. Spent morning at zoo, walked along beach, went to the international market. Prices are cheaper than Anchorage.

I don't know if it was in the long run. The tourism back then was very. Economical. Wow. You would have these companies that, you know, that put you in a van, take you.

Down to the bay, you get a sack, lunch, swim fins, masks, everything for snorkeling down there. And they said we'll be back in four hours or whatever to come and get you, and they'd bring you right back to your hotel room. And it was only like 12 bucks a person that is the cheap. Hawaii that she's talking about.

Okay. That, and you get to the international trade market. They're in the middle of, Honolulu, and I don't know how I'm remembering this stuff. You get there. They had tables like a, like a swap meet would have type thing, and you could get a fancy ized t-shirt for five bucks or whatever

Okay. This one's after you guys shortly got back after your honeymoon.

 Saturday, November 20th, 1982, Steve got his first taste of lentil soup and toasted cheese sandwiches with ketchup. Not impressed.

 Toasted cheese with ketchup.

Yeah. I mean, that should be illegal.

She used ketchup for everything.

Yeah, she did. Tell,

Oh my gosh. One of the first dinners she ever made after she became our stepmom, she made meatloaf. And it's my dad, Shirley, me and Ashley. My little sister's name is Ashley. We're sitting at the kitchen table having Shirley's first meal.

She's prepared for us and she goes to put ketchup on her meatloaf, but it came out black. And my sister and I are looking at each other and we're like, what is that Shirley? She goes, it's ketchup. We're like, we don't think it's supposed to be black. And she goes, this was during the time that is it Heinz? It came out with like green colored ketchup, just as a, yeah. So anyways, it was not supposed to be black and it was expired by years and years and years, but she still ate it.

So did she cook for you often?

Oh, she cooked. The majority of what she fixed was all right. It was maybe not, shall we say high, class type stuff.

But she cooked all right.

Yeah,

she's got some other entries this week. You she goes,

 Stopped at house linoleum and tub wraparound are installed. Cabinets are ready to be put in.

So you guys must have been building a house at this time period.

We got a house that was being built.

Yeah, she said it was beautiful. It was nice.

You get off the divided highway and the off ramp road goes down and the business part of town. Was right there, but where we take, we go farther, right? And it went up a nice hill and uh, that was a nice part of town there.

it was, It was nice. Yeah. And the nice thing about our house is we had on the lower floor, we had a double garage and it was an oversized double garage. And from there you go out the back of that and you go in and there was a, a big. Family room down there. Eddie had his private bedroom so that human beings wouldn't bother him.

Then you go up the steps there and we had a, a nice, uh. A nice living room, kitchen, dining, and then in the back we had three bedrooms up there and two baths up there, and it was, it was a nice house.

Okay, lemme find another one.

 Steve helped RA with Algebra Steve, studying for flight instructor rating. Called for post office box one year waiting list.

 Well, I don't really remember too much helping her with her homework, but I know that, uh, she needed,

 Saw RA's report card four Fs and two Ds having electrical problems with dryer. Steve spent more time at Circuit Box. Looks like problems at poll.

We lived in a, a little sort of a, it wasn't a full cul-de-sac, but it was sort of like a semi-circle deal there.

There was a house there and then Arch was here and there was a light pole right in the middle. And

I don't remember if she came to the door or if I saw her coming, whatever she had got, just. About to the beginning of that cul-de-sac area and her tires are spin. She could not move right out in the road there. She said, Steve, you're gonna have to find some way to take care of this. And I looked at it, I thought, well, this sounds a little crazy, but I went got, I had a big heavy rope tied one end of it to the pole.

'cause this. Everything was just glare ice. Took the thing, managed to get to her car, tied off to the front bumper of the car, hobbled back over to that power pole, and pulled her car all the way to the power pole, then tied it off.

Here's one about the animals.

Tuesday, March 22nd, 1983

 Signed up for Japanese cooking class. Almost lost. Chrissy Wolf started to attack and sugar followed. Chrissy sat there and hissed at them. Had lunch with Maxine and Sue. Sue moving to Juno.

Who was moving to Juno?

Sue? Do you remember a Sue?

No. I probably, if I saw a picture or something, I'd probably remember.

Chrissy was funny.

Yeah. Chrissy was a cat, right?

Yes. She was a ball of white fur.

Oh, Joe.

I mean, she was a, uh,

whatever it is. The white hair was about this long on her all over. I had no use for it. She could have been a cockroach as far as I was concerned.

But Chrissy decided of all the people in the house. She loved me.

Anyway.

I'd come in during the summer and I'd go in the house and I'd plop down on the bed for a while.

Chrissy come in the door do boom, up on the bed, right up on my chest and just lay there.

And, uh, I've got to where I'm, where I like the cats now, usually because they're about the only company I have in the average day. But

well, did Chrissy grow on you?

Did she grow on me?

Yeah. Did you end up liking her

after I put her through the dryer two or three times

Shirley would pull stuff out of the dryer and leave the door wide open.

Chrissy says, Hey, this thing's warm. Jump up in there. I'd go, need to put something in the dryer, and she'd be staring up at me. That irked me to no end. So I just shut the door to the dryer and you'd hear, hum hum hum, hum hum. And I'd open it up and she'd be

pew.

I thought you'd do that once or twice, she'd get the message.

Never. I've never

heard this story. I didn't hear that one either. Maybe Shirley never knew about it?

No. She knew about it because I would tell her, she'd go, what are you doing? I said, if you would shut the door to the dryer, that would not be a problem.

Poor Chrissy.

 Tuesday, September 20th, 1983 took Chrissy back to vet still wedding on couch. 

And then the crazy thing, it is. After I got in trouble and I wasn't there, Chrissy almost immediately went, got out of the house and left.

They never saw her again. I go, that don't make any sense as much.

Maybe she went looking for you

as much. Hell as I put that cat through like that, and then I heard. A lot of times it's someone that didn't care for a cat or something like that. The cat, when they leave, will leave and go somewhere and die.

I don't know. But it was Now they did have one pet that I absolutely loved. Oh, and that was Wolf.

Wolf. Woods. The most wonderful guy. Yeah. Even though, I mean here I got a wolf with teeth this long and he's got the teeth right through the calves of my leg and he's growling.

No fear. What he was doing is he's telling me not to hurt the kids. Yeah.

He was protecting our kids. And I tell him, okay, I'll leave him alone. I won't hurt him. And he'll immediately let go and just happy as could be.

And probably the only reason we didn't get destroyed was the wolf dog, you know, literally.

And it broke my heart when he got full of cancer and stuff and I had to take and put him down.

Yeah, you had to put him down when Shirley was out of town. Right. So it was just you. Yeah. Shirley loved Wolf too, right? .

Oh, you, how? How could you not love Wolf? Yeah, he, he was a great character.

Now Buster, the male cat, he might as well been a piece of ceramic.

He had nothing to do with anybody. He was just me and she would feed him and all that. That's about all I'd ever see of him.

 Saturday, December 4th, 19, Eddie, Eddie and Mike helped us move temps. Zero quit early. Kids went to party. Steve and I went to bed at nine 30. At 10. Chrissy jumped on bed and woke us up. Got up, put her out. Settled, heard Chrissy and sugar fighting. Jumped up gouged foot on mattress Spring. Put sugar outside.

She barked till 11. Got up, put her back in 1130. Carlene called, where's Eddie? 1230. Eddie came home, sent him back out to pick up Corra, got stuck in driveway. I got up to help him out. Everyone's home and all is quiet. Steve said, this place is a circus. Does this go on every night?

 Tuesday, December 14th, 1982. Chrissy is adjusting better, but Buster pooped on couch. Dogs started barking at midnight. Had to get up and put them out.

 And uh, sugar was a hilarious thing.

Sugar was a Samoy, biggest samoy I ever saw. She was about that big around, and she, she was big. We lived at the time, right close to the, this was before we moved into the Good House, and

she got out and. Blah, blah, blah. It was like 200 yards away from the divided highway. He got through, she got through a hole in the fence, went up there and came back a little bit later, and her whole rear end was all bloody.

Oh, did she get hit by a car?

She got hit by a car. It popped her tail off. Broke her tail off because.

I think it was Eddie went up on the road and found the tail and, uh, took her to the vet and the vet said, don't worry about it. It's, it's a joint that is to protect the animal really as much as anything. And, uh, put a bandaid on her tail. And of course she was white to begin with. We had several people over.

A couple years had thought she was a little polar bear

because she had with a little short stub tail about as much as a polar bear has. Same color.

No, she's not a polar bear. Are you sure

She eats cheese and ketchup sandwiches,

 Wednesday, December 22nd, 1982, took Wolf to Vets Puncture wound inside leg. Spent another evening wrapping Christmas presents. Muffler came loose on car.

 Wednesday, December 29th, 1982. High winds again for third day. Had lunch with June, Eddie, Mike and Steve. Worked on car engine. Came down pinning Eddie's hand under it. Steve broke creeper pushing engine off Eddie's hand. Dogs got loose and ran off.

 Thursday, December 30th, 1982, found dogs sitting on porch of our old trailer.

 So Amanda's gonna look for something else, but I I wanna do kind of an odd exercise with you.

You, you were describing the house. In Alaska and IF You're talking about the garage, you were talking about the materials and I felt like I was there. I want you to imagine that we all just traveled to that time period and you walk in and you see these two kids in the living room. What would you tell those two kids in the living room?

These two kids? Mm-hmm.

What are you doing in my house?

Yeah, that's uh.

Kind of amazing 'cause that's half of my life ago.

But you can tell them anything you want from anything that you know

I had probably say appreciate each other.

Because she didn't appreciate herself that much. When, uh, for instance, when we got down to Tucson mm-hmm. She had a hard time finding work and she come up to me just kind of crying. She says, I'm not helping. I'm sorry I can't, I'm trying. I said, don't worry about it, you'll be just fine. And we're making it now.

We'll be a lot, a lot better off. And it wasn't long until she had to work, but she, she was conscious of, of needs of other people. And, uh,

That was a strong. A strong point with her.

Steve, what would you say to those two kids? You'll

be okay.

Well, just what Steve said, enjoy each other, love each other, and, uh, grow old with each other.

 Sunday, April 17th, 1983, Steve had first experience ushering at Kingsway. He was the most handsome usher there and did a very professional job with.

 She was very prejudice.

I'm trying to think King's Way,

The name's familiar by just not putting a pic picture to it.

I know somewhere, I can't remember if it's in an interview or she wrote it down. She said once you guys got married, you went to church with her all the time. Yeah.

 We I went to church with her from the beginning.

 March 18th, 1984 visited Church of God to hear Rudy speak. Dynamite sermon. He got so carried away, he even jumped off the floor.

 Then we were blessed to hear the one and only.

 But the story of the lost sun is what I want to dwell on, and that's one of the great problems in America at this hour. Runaway young people right here in Alaska. There are many people that have run here from other parts of America hoping to find purpose and meaning here, and many of them end up on drugs or they end up in a suicide or something else running away from home. And the Bible is filled with stories of runaways.

Went to dinner with the Billy Graham crusade.

You that have been watching on television, you can make that commitment with these hundreds of people that are coming here in Anchorage tonight. It's my prayer that you'll do it now and be sure and go to church next Sunday.

Something Shirley always wanted to do, was to go back to Alaska just to visit. She never made it back up there.

 Until recently, Americans have thought of Alaska as an area of Arctic winds and Sub-Zero cold. But this picture is only partly true for the face of our 49th state is as varied as it is large. Steep mountains fall away to river valleys and sweeping planes, and though much of Alaska is rocky and barren, there are also nearly a million acres of fertile planes, which during the almost endless sunlight of summer produce healthy crops.

Modern Alaska is also an area of urban centers. The largest city is Anchorage, where new homes, hotels, and businesses. Arising rapidly to keep pace with the needs of a growing population.

 That was her favorite place to live. Well, I'll tell you what. I've mentioned it many times before, people either love or hate Alaska.

Mm-hmm. There's no in between. There's no, oh, it's okay. And if you, if you take what Alaska has to offer, there's, nobody can beat it. If you are wanting what you had down here, you'd be miserable up there.

I mean, I had simple little things that I'll never forget that, uh, I enjoyed up there that you're not gonna find anywhere else.

I had a, a little two lane road going into the air base where I was and the. Trees up there would just build up 25 feet high on both sides of the road. And there was like about a

20 foot open way that was grassy on either side. And I would see cow moose on the, in the grass and they're walking on their front knees. Because their legs are so long that they can't reach the grass if they don't, and they'll have their little calves with them. And, uh, there's no such thing as a beautiful adult moose.

Male or female. The males are magnificent, but they're not beautiful. But the calves, calves of almost anything are just wonderful and, but the calves could get down to the grass. But mama had on, had to work at it. And then I remember turning out to go this way to go into the town and the in the spring in.

Late April or so, the everything is blooming, everything is coming to life, and the air is saturated with the smell of

what the core. Uh, IL or whatever it is. And it is just, it smells like life, everything there. And that, that was something that, uh, I look forward to every year and like every year towards fall. The, during the summer, the, doone. Little red flowers would grow up and by the end of the summer they'd be almost six feet high, and they would be all over the fireweed, and the fireweed would be. Just about everywhere there, and it was so beautiful during the autumn. I've got some pictures of autumn trees there by where I lived.

And, uh, it's, they're just, everything turns bright yellow with the vegetation, the autumn. Those things to me were special and, uh. I can smell it. I've got, I've got nothing against Saguaro Cactus Howsoever. They can't match that.

No. Sure Shirley agrees with you. That was her, that was her favorite place too,

she grew to love Arizona and she thought it, she said it was a, wasn't expecting it to be as beautiful as it was out here, but she did love Alaska.

She said, well, there's, there's a lot of beautiful places here in Arizona.

Yeah.

Here's a funny one. Okay, Saturday, April 30th, 1983.

 Steve is sick with flu aches all over sweats. I beat him up during the night.

 So. She had a funny little side to her.

 Steve had flight physical, high blood pressure, hypertension, and pains in stomach. Being married to me is really getting to him. 

Tell Steve when she was dying, right when the phone call came, she had a sense of humor all the way to the end.

She had a doctor's appointment just like a regular checkup on the calendar, and they didn't know that she was turned over to hospice and she ended up passing away a couple days after this phone call that that's how.

Sick. She was, but she gets a phone call her cell's ringing, and I'm like, oh, surely your phone's ringing. Do you want me to get it? And she goes, no, I'll answer it. She answers it and they're, they're calling to confirm her appointment and she told them, oh, I, I'm not gonna make it. And she goes. Well, I can't, 'cause I'm currently dying

Yeah. I, I have known some strange things people have said right when they're dying and, uh. They make you think a little bit sometimes. Sometimes that we, we know things that, uh, that we can't know.

My brother, he was dying of cancer and all, and I made a couple trips out to be there with him and with his wife during this time. And, uh. The second time I got there to the back door and got let in and he had a bed there in the living room 'cause he couldn't go up and down the stairs anymore.

And, uh, he was laying there and I talked to his wife for a minute. He goes. Hang on a second, Steve, and she goes, I think he's gone. And he had just died. He died less than, less than five minutes after I got there.

It's almost like he was waiting for you.

That's what everyone says. It says he might not have been conscious, really, but they, he says.

A lot of times people will sense when somebody's there that's gonna take care of matters and that it's all right to go. And with my brother opens that way.

Were you close with your brother?

At times. Yay and nay. Yeah. As a kid, nay.

 Saturday, October 29th, 1983. Steve's brother, Mike, and his wife came in to see us. I like them both. Mike isn't a monster after all. He's really funny and enjoyable to be around.

 I got along with him real well the last few years he had. Mm. And we talked about things from. Childhood to everything. I mean it as kids, we didn't have anything.

But it was enough. And my dad died when I was seven. And uh, my mom had a hard time, but she'd had a hard time her whole life because she grew up during the, dust storms of Oklahoma and all that stuff.

 Thousands poured into the plains to grab what they could from the soil. Unknowingly, they were creating this area that in the thirties would be called the dust bowl. All through the twenties, high paying wheat was the goal. New faster equipment joined the tractor, farmers and ranchers became gamblers expanding on credit, more equipment.

More land to produce more wheat to pay the bills, carving out millions of acres of green pasture land. Nevermind the cost. Well, the dry weather started about 30 and and then 31 and 32, it got worse. And some of these farmers had livestock and they didn't have any place to graze these cattle much. And they turned them on these fields and that left the land bare.

And in 19 and 33 it was pretty bad. And, uh, about 34, it got real bad.

 She was no key. And they were part of the gang, the thousands that evacuated Oklahoma and went to California. And, uh, she just, she had to work hard and didn't have a whole lot in her whole life, but. Oh, she could cook. No, she could do anything she wanted to. She cook, she sewed my shirts for me.

She did all this stuff 'cause she couldn't afford to buy 'em. Yeah, she'd find some scrap material and get one of the patterns out. A day later I'd have a new shirt and uh, she was really good that way. And, uh.

I didn't appreciate my brother 'cause he was a rowdy teenager in the fifties. And, uh,

cops would be chasing him trying to find out what he's doing and, you know, it's just, it was rowdy and it, it was very hard on my mom. Okay.

And so I did resent him. Then later after he, he, 20 years later after he grew up he was fine.

You're forced me to remember things

I would really like you to clear.

The air about this airplane that we thought was like canvas.

Oh. To describe the airplane, as I imagine

when she's talking about it being canvased, I was like, that sounds like a flying converse sneaker.

But

And then the

brand name of the airplane was a mall. It. Mine was a mall six,

 You don't have to take off within 360 feet in a mall M six, but you can if you want to. We may sound like we're bragging, but it's pretty hard to beat a mall when it comes to short field takeoffs. Lightning crews startlingly, low fuel consumption and short landings. The mall is so safe because of its rugged construction and high crews to stall ratio.

It's been awarded America's only preferential insurance rate. Pick up the phone and call your nearest rocket man for a free, thrilling eye-opening demonstration of what flying is really like. Mall Aircraft Corporation, Jackson, Michigan, USA.

 mall

six, and it seats four passengers, two front, two rear, and then it's got a cargo area behind. They're very powerful and they're very

interesting fliers. It's what they call a tail dragger. And a tail dragger. Most of the airplanes you see has a wheel under each wing and one up on the nose, a tail dragger. It's like your old timey planes that had one under each wing and a wheel under the tail, and the advantage to the tail dragger.

Really, it's basically Alaska because it will land in places that you can't land playing like most your modern stuff. And so, uh, when I saw that mall was available, I jumped on that.

I landed. I could land out in the desert if I found a, a place where there had been flooding or from rains or something, once they dried off and had that little clay type top on 'em, I'd come down there and land and we'd go.

So I had a lot of areas that were just mine.

How long of a landing strip did

you need for something like that? It depends how, uh. Experienced and how gutsy you are.

Now I know I, Shirley was terrified to, to fly in.

I, I I was always very careful with shall we say non-experienced.

Sure. People, because it could be terrifying. Yeah, I mean I had a a Bush pilot take me into the middle of the Alaska range of mountains, and they've got these canyons and there's rocky areas, but there's be maybe 10 or 15 different streams running down it in the summer.

And you, you just find one of those that seems to be maybe big enough and uh, go for it. And this guy had been doing it for years, so I went in with him. It was the first time I ever been in a mall. And it was amazing because we landed where there was no place to land, and it was, I would've

been terrified.

It was funny because. You go on there and he would take, and let's say this is the edge of the area to land in, and this is water. He'd land there. The front wheels would be over the land and the tail gear would bounce a little bit on the edge as you go, and he'd slammed those brakes and we'd just slide to a stop about 10 feet from the other edge.

And I'm out there going, did we really do this? Yeah, do it all the time. Just

so I when I got my plane. I would practice these little short areas except for being the coward I was, I didn't have to worry a whole lot because it was a lot more of the area that I could land on. I just would pick a spot, put it down there, and then just bring it because I wanted to.

That's how you improve yourself, is to practice safely the things that other people are little nervous about.

You have to know where the passes are between the mountains and some of those mountains are just so high you can't believe it. I flew over the top of Mount McKinley one time and it's 20,000 feet. Wow. And, uh oh, but God, what a beautiful view. Oh, I can't even imagine. Anyway you, there's certain passes that you could fly through those passes and never get over three or 4,000 feet high, but if you get the wrong one, you're allowed to get into a box canyon and they're narrow enough.

There's just no way to get out of it. Oh, that would be scary. So you gotta know what you're doing. I gotta think if I ever got in a box canyon, I need to figure some way to get out of it. And so I would, I spent a couple hours out in the flats doing maneuvers that would allow me to come back out the same way I had gone in.

I got it figured out to where it's really pretty easy if you do it right. And uh, I took Kare and Eddie. And Eddie was the, brave one, or no, Eddie was the shy one and Karine was the brave one. And so I, I put Eddie up in the front seat first. Uhhuh, we flew around, and I said, I got a maneuver I want to show you. And I did that, that particular maneuver, you end up just about every angle an airplane can end up. Oh my gosh. You start out by point it down about 45 degrees. 'cause you wanna build your speed up to get then you pull it up to where you're up to about 60 or 70 degrees almost straight up.

And then you take and plot the wing over and then you lay it down and it comes out exactly on the path that you went in. And I did that. And when it was over with, I took a look at her and she was green.

I I, to be fair, I think I would've been green too. She was just plain green. Oh my goodness. Was she, was she saying, okay, I am ready to go home now? No, I, I, I told her, I said, I'm going to get you home and I'm going to fly just as smooth as silk all the way back, which I. So living up there, could you basically fly?

Like did you fly all over? I flew out of an arrow club and I had access to probably 10 or 12 different planes, and my favorite was flying float planes. Instead of wheels. It's got two big long pontoons under it. Oh, okay. Yeah, I've seen those in movies. I've never been on one before.

Oh, they're wonderful. Really? So would you go land them on lakes? Yes, lakes, rivers if the river's big, you can land it on river. If it's not big, you don't. But I had places where I would land it on lakes that were so remote. There's no people anywhere, and you land there in your fish and catch big salmon and have a great time there.

Shirley did say you guys fished a lot. Did you guys go, um, was there like a big salmon run every year up in Alaska that you guys would go camping and catch fish at? There's several big salmon runs. Okay. She spoke about some of those in her journals.

We would do outdoor things together quite a bit, but used to go, uh.

We'd go water ski. And, uh, surely it was always

welcome to go and go out and do it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, she was adventurous. She was always down to try new things. I feel like

it was funny that one time when she took a fishing after the pink salmon up there.

She had her fish before I got in the water. Which one of the, of the five of us had the hardest time.

Which one?

Eddie?

Actually, I couldn't see that.

And I know he got frustrated because little Leslie was about this big and she was doing fine.

, Leslie did something that cracked me up one time.

I took Dan and her. Down to a place called Russian Rivers to do some salmon fishing over the sockeye salmon. And they're tremendous fighters. I didn't expect Lesley to do any serious fishing. She was only about that big.

Yeah. Dan, I trained him. He had a good chance. Yeah. And I got there. Got my rig hooked up his, I don't know if he did it or if I did it for him, but Leslie, I just had an old junk rod with a junk reel on it, but I put that drag about a million pounds per, nobody's gonna pull off of it. And I just put her in a place on the other side of the big tree where the sand went right to the water and it was really shallow there in case you fall in.

It was only about that deep of water right there and. She hooked a line in and stuff. I figured she was, it was safe for her 'cause she wasn't gonna catch anything. Yeah. About 10 minutes after we got there, I had a nice sound like that. I got him up on the shore. I was getting ready to get him, and Dan had had one or two on that.

He didn't land. Pretty soon he's going, dad, what? Unless we thinks she's got a fish. She just hooked up on some brush or something. I continued a minute later he going, dad, I really think she's got one. About that time my stuff goes down and I go out there and she hold on for a dear wife.

The fish can't get away because of how tight the drag is. She's. Managing to stay upright. I look at that and I go, this salmon is trying its best and they're tremendous fighters. It's trying its best to get away, and it would go up as far as the line lengths would allow, and then it would curve around until it got to the bank on this side, and then it would spring out that way and go.

It was making. Cir half circles. Yeah. What are we gonna do here? I thought I got an idea a couple times. It's bounced on this particular spot on the upper side. I'm gonna wait there with the net. It comes back. I'll scoop it up. Leslie, you got your fish and that's exactly what happened. Oh, she was so proud of herself.

Oh, well the fish was about this long. She was about that long. She got that fish and Dan hadn't got a fish yet. Now Dan's having to work. He got one a few minutes later, but

yeah,

she got that and got pictures of the three of us with the three fish. Right. And the kids are all pointing and saying, dad, yours is the smallest.

Yeah. You know that, that's just how it is.

Yeah.

And uh, when I went to visit him a few years ago, I asked her, I said, do you remember that, blah, blah, blah? And she says, I sure do. And I'll never forget that. You see just a, just a little snot at the time. And that was a treasure for me.

These were king salmon. These were the ones

that were. Like that. Oh wow. Yeah.

And I hooked a good size one and managed to get it in. It was about 36 pounds and Dan just wasn't having any luck getting him.

Finally, he goes, can I use your rod? Sure. And he had, when we got there, he had bought a couple lures off of the bait shop there. Nothing I would've ever used, but he's a kid, you know, it's he's rigged up with what I would rig up. Now he goes out there and after a few minutes. His mom is, uh, tired of waiting.

It's getting dark, and when it's getting dark in the summer, it's getting late. And anyway his mom says, okay, Dan, you gave it a good try. Let's bring it in. He goes, no, mom. And she says, yeah, you need to bring it in. He says. Let me have one more cast. Okay. One more cast that get him off my case. Right. He hooked a salmon on there, a big one.

Bought that thing for better part of a half an hour

that fish would go up, and there was a little outcropping. And you go the other side of the outcropping, it's death just about, because there's a raging river on the other side. And that fish get in that river turn sideways. A boat won't stop it. Yeah. And anyway, it gets around that corner and there's a couple people go, well, an awful good try young man.

And I told him, I says, try hell. We're going to get that fish. And he's, yeah. And

how old was he at this time?

Nine or 10.

So the fish weighs as much as he does. And anyway, I said, what you do, you keep good, hard, steady pull on him. Don't try to reel him. Hard, steady pull. Sooner or later, he'll get a little bit tired. When he does, he'll come around that corner and when he comes around that corner, you start reeling for all your worth.

He did exactly as I told him. The fish did exactly as I said it would, brought it around. And this picture is tired now. And, I go to get my net on it and I pull up like this and my net handle bit, I go, that's not good. And some other guy comes up, says, here, try mine. It was a great big, huge net because they're rooting point button now anyway.

Uh. I got there, got the net over him and the bank caved in from me. And I'm standing this deep in cold water now, right? But I've got the net and I handed up to somebody up there and then we got him in. That was a 40 pound fish ish. That little kid caught. We're heading back. Mom's glad to be heading back.

Anyway, we're heading back. A quarter of a mile to the road north. And there was a, a game board there. He looks at that. Well, Dan would carry mine and I was carrying his big guy. And uh, he says, you catch that fish all by yourself. And Dan looks up at him and says, heck no, not this middle. That one is mine.

But he had got that, and that to date, I believe is the biggest fish he's ever got.

Do you think Dan remembers that? You have to.

I'll have to ask him. Oh, I'm sure he does though. You remember it? Yeah.

He just said the big salmon at Montana Creek.

I bet he remembers that.

But uh, it was a biggie.

Yeah.

It was probably the biggest one caught on that creek that night.

Wow.

Those are a lot of my good memories. Yeah. And when the, when the kids do great, that makes 'em better. Mm-hmm. In Idaho, I used to always take him fishing with me. I'd catch my limit, he'd catch one fish, but that one fish was always bigger than anyone I had. It was funny every time it would turn out that way.

Lucky kid.

Now are you still in touch with Carol? Did you guys keep in contact over the years?

Not much. Her husband died this last year and I sent her condolences and

that's about all that was. But

I kind of blame myself for that one falling apart. Well, I blame myself for everything falling apart, but

I loved my outdoor stuff. And I did too much of that, and she felt left out. So she started finding her attention other places. And, uh, I get irritated at myself because had I not. I've been out climbing mountains, hunting, fishing, doing all this other stuff, uh,

that might've worked out permanently and marriage is supposed to work permanently.

Shirley was a fine girl. She would've been true to me till, till the moss turns pink. And

that was my fault

That's as deepest I'm going to go in that. But she was she was kind of funny. She was kind of gangly in some ways.

Uh, you had mentioned while we were eating and I was looking at Steve. Uh, and you had, you had said a key word to me that is very powerful. You had said, you know, there's moments where I felt an awkwardness, right?

Uh, I can, you know, with Amanda watching her go through this project, um, and when I saw her light up when she was talking to Dan, I realized that. This is doing a lot more than just a tribute to Shirley. It's building specific bridges. Um, I I, I know that you had mentioned that you, you had a desire to, to reach out, you know, to Shirley and to Steve and to, and to, I think that, to me is a really powerful thing that is, is happening inside all of us.

You know, it's, I know Amanda has a desire to, um, for example, you know, this has been her whole upbringing, feeling Shirley's story and how you relate to it and how the kids relate to it. And I think there's a level of relief and peace that comes from Amanda where she's able to resolve a lot of feelings.

She's able to. Maybe some of them were fear as a kid. I know Shirley had expressed, of course I'm saying this when these kids outside screaming their heads up. But, um, you know, there's a lot of parts to this story that could be, uh, could make somebody nervous to come. Uh, and I have, it's been refreshing for me.

To feel the same sentiment from you. Right. Amanda has, uh, some things that have been weighing on her that meaning you, I can see in her face is such a, it's, it's like a peace. It's, it's, it's a bunch of different emotions and it's a, like a joy and it's a, a relief. I know that in, in some of these tapes and, and Amanda speaking, Shirley had also felt.

Scared and nervous about you losing contact with her or, uh, just a lot of things and I wish she was here to, for all of us to talk. And this is a very neutralizing thing. It clears a lot of different things in the air, and I, I, Amanda's gonna tell you this, but I appreciate you meeting. Her so much because this is such a, it's such a powerful thing to sit and, and visit with you and hear your stories.

Mm-hmm. Also hear the, the commonality between your relationship with someone that she loves so much. Um, and also in a very candid way, uh, you know, to hear you be in your. Truth in your story. A hundred percent. That's really, really, um, and, uh, I, we brought Steve and I, and I, I'm sad that he left because I wondered if there's other things that you would like to say to him, to Amanda or to Shirley if she was here.

Um, you know, you had mentioned that you, there is curiosity. You want to know. People are doing, you wanna know people's

thoughts and people's feelings.

Well, I had curiosity. Just curiosity. No. How Shirley's life was continuing because it wasn't her fault that things got tangled up and messed up. And, uh. She hung real strong with it for quite a while,

and then from, basically from what I got from her is, is neighbors or friends or something basically talked her into splitting it up and uh, if she had got positive support on that from everyone, she probably wouldn't have.

Do you think you would still, if Shirley had stayed and continued visiting you throughout the years, do

you think you would've stayed with her when you got released? Probably.

There was a big part of you though. Love Shirley.

You look at it, you know, you, you give a part of your life to somebody.

It's nice if you can, because it's a two, it's a two way street. It always affects both people. When you give to somebody, you can't help but receive something and just like you're receiving by what you're giving right now. And that's good. That's a good thing. We were meant as human beings to, you might say, take care of each other.

And, uh, I have never met you folks before, and yet I see so much love and so much positiveness that it's very rewarding.

Even this Californian,

No, I, I really do appreciate you, us I've known about you

for, gosh, since I was 16, 15. 16 years old. I haven't known about you.

That's what I know. That's what's so crazy. That's why I told Dan too on the phone, I was like, I've known about you and have heard stories about you since I was,, a teenager.

And it's

well, I know stories about it too that,

yeah,

some of 'em didn't get proved till the last time I saw him.

You finally admitted to some of them.

You know, like where he used to climb out the bedroom window at night

yeah, he said, well, we had a, a great steak pit fence

Uhhuh.

He said, surely never knew, but right behind the. The fencing there. I had a bunch of marijuana up there and I,

So you guys had your hands full with Eddie and Danny.

Dan actually was, for the most part, a little easier for me to keep under Walker Key,

is there something you would like to say to Dan right now? A thought that you have, maybe we can share with him. I mean, I know you can do that yourself, but

about Dan in, he will always be my son and as my son. I'll always treasure him as myself or more.

And we went fishing there in one of them Ozark Lakes a couple years ago and uh, it was good to spend some time there 'cause I hadn't seen him in ages and spent time with him and his wife. And the boys. And the dogs and his buddy, and it was it was neat being out there. A shame we didn't catch much, but it was a good trip.

It sure can rain cold there.

Now I, one of the things that. You just mentioned, which is so validating to hear you say this is you know, I met Amanda and, and she was talking to me about all of these things that she's working on. Uh, and that was the recurring theme of this positivity that Shirley brought.

And I think it's a really good unifier, uh, to, to. When you think about, for me, the, the ed stories were wild from Shirley, but to hear her outlook in the middle of all these things that were pretty horrific, um, and then that people can still overcome difficulty and overcome fear and, um, awkwardness and, uh, to come together to, to still be human is very valuable to.

Me. I can't imagine, when I hear Shirley in between her little jokes and her sarcasm, but I can't imagine the moments for Shirley where she did have to make a deci certain decisions that involved you or that involved her other husbands or the kids. Um, and that's what I love about this story.

It's so lighthearted but heavy, right? Um. And I, I'm watching it firsthand with Amanda because this deeply, you know, affects her everything surrounding this story. Uh, and, uh, I, I mean, I feel lucky to be a part of it and to, you know, get to interact with everybody where, in a way I'm not involved, but, but I can feel it through everyone.

You're not involved, but you are. Oh, yeah. I.

But this is, uh, I think it's a very valuable thing in the human experience.

It sits beautiful. It's,

you know what it tells me though,

this is a great honor for Shirley, but we need to take a look at. People we're familiar with people that we care about everything and honor them while we've got 'em.

Yes.

Because they don't necessarily know that we're honoring them now. And it's, it's a good thing, but it's it's a better thing. It will honor 'em while we've got 'em.

That's why I wanted you to talk into the mic when you were talking about Danny and Leslie and sharing those stories and. 'cause it's beautiful. And, and they will treasure that one day recording.

We appreciate you spending the day with us, Steve, and we appreciate all of your, all the things you've shared, your willingness, your openness,

meeting strangers. Yeah. Is it weirdo?

'cause this was, we,

we, we kind of just came at you. We did. And, but I knew in my heart that Amanda's so disarming because she's so genuine and so caring and she's doing, this is her passion project. Um, and we've thrown a lot at you today and we, I want to know if you have any a questions for us.

Just other things we haven't thought of to ask you that you can?

Well, there's a few surprises here.

My dad coming, having both, both of Shirley, Steve's in the same room.

That's no biggie there. But, uh, few surprises because you saw some things in in Shirley that I didn't necessarily see.

And, everything was positive and , that's really good.

But it's, uh,

a few things for all of us to learn.

I know I'd be a lot happier about it if I was 40 years younger.

I mean, I Look at you. I, I don't see 40. I see. Late twenties. Tell me more. That's how you make friends.

Well, I like you. Tell me more.

I feel like there's, there's plenty of negative that we can find anywhere, but, uh, I think what really carries all of this project is the positivity.

Just how it is sometimes, but the positive it's. It's so much better than the negative.

And I think that it's, I'm sad that Shirley's not here 'cause I think she really, really would've loved to have heard you, like to have met you today. And she always thought you were mad at her. She always told us you were, you know, this great guy.

Like you heard her, um, but she always thought that she divorced you and that you were mad. Matter. So just, I think that would just always kind of wait on her. So I think she felt like she did, something wrong or she would've, I think she would've loved to have heard you today say that you tried to check in on her, or you wanted to know how she was doing, or, I think that would've meant the world to her.

You know, it is, it is, it's nice to know that she had so many people that. Felt so high about her. Everybody should have somebody that thinks that they're all right.

Yeah,

I mean, I, uh, I had a lot of years where not very many people were thinking very high on me, but. There was a reason for that. I wasn't thinking very high on me either for a while, but, uh,

I'm just, uh, if I can make somebody happy or comfortable or more than anything, just about to feel worthwhile. That's what I'd like,

and I know that's what you're trying to do there with Julie. Yeah. Because if you can get this out there showing the, the love and the positivity, even with the difficulties, uh, it will, it will affect somebody's life.

Yeah, and I think it has this underlying message of just like love and hope, and not everything is the negative.

There's so much positive,

but it's, it's still ta it stays very truthful. It still set, that's what I think is so powerful that it's, it's very truthful in that , it doesn't deny the negative, like it doesn't deny the dark spots in the story, but it's the. The positivity still prevailed and you know, the courage is still there.

Um, and so that's, I think that's what's, to me, the most meaningful part of this.

, We appreciate you coming and, and your candor and your Yeah. And having

lunch with us and.

I appreciate you

filling us in on your life too, 'cause you've always been a big mystery to me, kind of how you were like, I've always wondered what happened to Shirley.

I've always wondered about you to me. Well, you've been a mystery in my life too. So this was really, really nice to meet you and sit down with you and talk with you and hear your stories.

And now I know you really like fishing. What was that? You really love to fish. You really love fishing.

And the thing is, I haven't done hardly any fishing in that many years.

Yeah.

I went down to, uh, a couple to Lucas a couple years ago. I was going to go, I had it all set up to get on a boat to go. Marvin or San? Oh, fishing. Oh, I wanted that, right? I got the ca San Lopez. I got called into an office. The person says, are you so and so? Yeah. Have you been in prison? Yeah. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

You can't stay here. And they put me on an airplane, sent me back home. That

doesn't make any sense to me. That doesn't make any sense. I didn't

get to go and I thought, all in the world I want to do. Is to live a nice, peaceful life. I don't want to hurt anyone. I don't want anyone to hurt me. Mm-hmm. I just, that's how it is.

But there's so many people in this world that have no sense of forgiveness in them. And without forgiveness, you can't expect to get forgiveness when it comes to you. But that's, that's how it's, that's actually a

powerful, that's a powerful statement.

But that's, you know, that's just how it is. Uh, people,

uh, all they can see is the weakness in everyone else.

I've got plenty on my own. I don't need anyone else's.

I've actually been wanting to call you for about probably four years, and I just never thought it was the right. I don't know, it just felt weird.

It felt, I'm like, how's he gonna this random girl calling you? Strange when I got this phone

call.

Okay. Yeah.

And then I think Shirley passed away and, and you mentioned this earlier too, like. Kind of along the same lines of just, life is so short, we don't know how long any of us are gonna be here. And it's important to do this stuff while you can. And I think there was a sense of urgency in me that was just like, I'm doing it.

I'm not waiting anymore. I'm calling Dan. I'm calling Steve. I'm just gonna call him. I'm gonna call Leslie. I've gonna call. 'cause I didn't know, 'cause I knew none of you guys knew about me, but I knew about you guys. So I know. Isn't that creepy? That's scary. That is so creepy. Right?

But there was a sense of fear on my end too, just not knowing. You guys might have been like,

and it was funny because Jeanine didn't want to say much, but you could tell she was not at all easy with this.

That's totally understandable too. Yeah, that's

understandable. Well,

you know, the Strange gal calls up watching meet at a hotel.

Okay, well now you just made it sound really strange. Hey,

that you imagine how that

Yes. Sounds to her. No, that's why. No, I get

it. Yeah.

We that, that's why to us it demonstrates even more openness and more your, well, I had to

find out.

Oh man.

Well, uh, we'd love to stay in, in touch. Yeah. Keep you, up to date on all the things.

Yeah. We'd love to send it to you too once it's done and finalized and, and maybe there might be something more that comes to my mind or yours when you get

a chance.

Yeah. Not only your phone number, gimme your address too.

Okay.

And your last name? I, I don't remember it.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, and if it's okay, if I can call you again sometime and Sure. And feel free to call me too, if there's like a story, like you just remember something out of the blue that you're like, this would be really good on this.

Or if I

find a couple really good pictures. Yeah.

Or more pictures, because we're gonna put pictures in a book.

Yeah. And

in fact, we wanna know if we can get your permission. Are you okay if we put these pictures?

Yeah. I gave 'em to you.

 We spent five hours with Steve Scaggs that day. A day I had replayed in my mind for more than half of my life. We exchanged stories of Shirley. He filled in some of the gaps I had only imagined from reading journals. Sitting with Scaggs was an event that I had dreaded, but I knew was necessary. I was taken by surprise at so many thoughts and emotions I never imagined I would have in the moment.

Feeling this reality that whether any of us felt his sentence had been just in so many ways, he had lived consequences for his actions and continues to do so, not knowing how I'd feel as we sat together and discovering a different side of human interaction, feeling compassion and understanding, maybe even finding a resonance in the things he said.

Even with my mind filled with some of the images that have haunted me from his actions, I was able to face him and talk to him and feel that he is also a person. In this sphere we're all trying to navigate. It was humbling and sobering. There was a humanity that suddenly was associated with a perceived monster for my childhood, a villain who was suddenly relatable and susceptible to injury.

He told us he recently had a heart attack. 

My chest was this big and anyway. She got there, got me over to, uh, hospital there, north, uh, Phoenix.

And they helicoptered me to Phoenix heart Hospital.

Oh, wow.

And, uh, I just, I don't know how in the world I get so lucky sometimes. I had the two top heart physicians in the state of Arizona working on me that night. Wow. Probably saved your life.

Yeah.

Duh. And, uh, yeah, it was, uh, pretty amazing. I was laying in a, it was a little bitty helicopter and they put me in and they stuck my legs in where the copilot would sit basically, and then slid me back this way to get me to where I fit in this thing in the gurney.

And. When we landed on the heart hospital, I was on the table in probably three minutes after that. And, uh, I spent a week, maybe eight days there the first time, and then they brought me back in to do some more work on me and, the actual, what they did, they put six stents in there.

Oh, so you had surgery that day? Oh yeah. Okay.

They put, they gave me six stents. Mm-hmm. You know how they do stents?

Yeah. It's making

me just think,

did they like slice you open? No. Through your

leg, don't they? Right, right through their right. Next to the crotch.

You want 'em to be real careful and then they, yeah. Yeah, they, oh

my god.

I'm trying to remember the name of, trying to name it. Remember the name of the artery there. But then they guide the thing all the way up to the spot they need

And they do that six times on you?

Yeah, six different ones. Oh my God.

The second time they took me in and, oh, you had a second heart attack?

No, same heart attack. Hey, what? They sweat my throat on both sides and my carotid arteries, they slid 'em open. Scraped them out because they were completely clogged up.

I didn't care for it either. You were sleeping though, weren't you? No.

Oh my God, no.

That one was kind of painful. One of the, one of the, uh, stents they put in there, it wouldn't go through there. It was too much clogged, stuff like that. Mm-hmm. He's out there and he's. Push it and push it. I'm awake and I'm going, you know, that kind of like hurts.

He goes, well, I'm sure it does, but I gotta get it does. He's like,

I'm saving your life.

Yeah. And he ended up taking a, like a, a mallet and pounding it in there.

I probably would've passed out. I think I just would've passed out. I've liked

to passed out, but when he, once he stopped doing that, mm-hmm. I was okay.

But that one wasn't fun.

Yeah. Everything's been okay since then. Now for the, okay. Are you like on medication now to help with

I ain't got enough medication to fill this cup every day.

Remember Shirley, all the pills she was taking towards the, she never took

medication. She took extra over the counter, uh, like vitamin EL vitamins.

Yeah, she

had a lot.

That's throwing away Shirley's vitamins and stuff.

And I thought, well, I'm not I'll start taking 'em. So she at, at towards the end of her life, she was, she couldn't taste anything.

I remember that.

Were you Shirley's husband After me? Mm-hmm. Ah, okay.

Yeah. So she was married three times.

Yeah.

So one our med. And I love that when he, we were on the phone and he goes, is that a one arm ed? I was like, yep.

I said, that's one arm, ed. So now that's how I, that's how I'm gonna refer to him now.

One arm Ed

 So I was bachelor number two.

 My name is Steven Elvis Skaggs. 

Were you there the day that she died?

I was there the morning that she died.

Tell me about that.

She was put in hospice care, so we knew she'd only had a couple days to live. And so I flew out to be with my dad and to help him, and I don't think I got any sleep that week. Um, and the reason why I didn't get any sleep that week was I was helping my dad during the day, but at night.

I would, you know, fall asleep. We'd get to bed like around midnight and by 2:00 AM I'd be wide awake and my dad would be blaring. Blaring. I think he thought Shirley was going death. I'm like, she's not going death, dad. She's just dying. He would be blaring Christian gospel music at like 2:00 AM in the morning.

And so it would panic me and I'd wake up and I'm like, oh my gosh is she is now the time, like, what's happening? So I'd wake up and go check on him. But uh, the morning she did pass away was September 12th,

so the morning that she passed away, which was September 12th, 2023. Same thing, I, I went into the room so my dad could go take a shower.

It was probably 6:00 AM and I sat with her and I'd just given her some morphine and she had closed, she wasn't really opening her eyes very much, but she had closed her eyes and I was like, okay, she's resting peacefully. So I left just for a minute to go make some coffee, and right as I got to the doorway.

I had this feeling and I turned around and I saw her take her last breath.

And I've heard this before, that usually people, you know, the, when they're about to go, um, it's usually in the moments, and you hear this all the time from family members, it's usually in the moments they're like, oh, I just left for a minute to make a phone call.

I just left the room for a minute to talk to the doctor. I just left the, like, I was only gone a minute or two. But I, I feel like the person, you know, the loved one that's leaving usually finds that tiny little spot to leave and to journey to the other side. And that's what Shirley did.

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/shirley-you-cant-be-serious/id1830515861?i=1000722504722